Basic question about switches and towers

Hi everyone, I was wondering how track switches are operated. I was under the impression that the towers are responsible for them. Is that always the case? If that is the case, which tower controls the switches in say Freeport or Merrick?

Also.... Are the towers manned 24 hours a day? I'm guessing the answer is yes.

Thanks in advance guys
Chris

While many switches are controlled by towers, not all switches are.

Some switches are hand-thrown on the ground by train crews:


Others are spring switches, indicated with a sign that reads "SS." They are set in one direction and when a train comes off the switch in the opposite direction, it forces the points in the direction of the train's travel. Once the train comes off the switch, it snaps back into the pre-set position.

The remaining towers in service today are, I believe, manned with 3 tricks (tours of duty).

Years ago, that wasn't so. Many block offices (that were in cabins and in ticket offices) were only open part time and closed at other times. That was the whole purpose behind the PRR instituting the Unattended Block Station signal and "K" card system on the LIRR back in 1928.

Let's say your train was heading east. It got its orders and "K" card at "PD" in Patchogue. "BO" and "F" (Mastic: this is 1928, remember!) were closed because it was, say, a Sunday afternoon. The "K" card would read something to the effect of "proceed past BO and F as though clear block signal were displayed."

Also, the front pages of your ETT would list the hours of operation for the block offices so you would know which offices were open and when. If an office closed for other than the regular hours in the ETT, your train would receive a form 19 that read something to the effect of "To C&E No. 4: PT block station closed for your train. No. 4 gets its orders at SK."

I'm not a block operator, so this is just a rough explanation.

You will have to get an answer from one of the current LIRR guys as to who controls switches at Freeport and Merrick nowadays and how they're thrown.

Dave

From what I have read, the LIRR is unique these days in that it still has towers. In most of the 20th century, railroads had many towers for controlling train movements. By the end of the century, most railroads centralized train control to single computer aided control centers, often hundreds of miles from the tracks. I seem to remember for example that the D&H was controlled from Wisconsin or Minnesota after CP bought the route circa 1990. Anyway, what makes the LIRR unique is that it still has towers; 9 I seem to remember: Harold(at Sunnyside), Jay (west side of Jamaica), Hall (east side of Jamaica), Queens, Nassau (Mineola), Divide (Hicksville), PD (Patchogue), Valley (Valley Stream) and more?

The towers control most major switches. Switches for freight sidings and switches east of Ronkonkoma and Patchogue ? are hand thrown. Anyone, please correct me.

alcoc420 wrote:9 I seem to remember: Harold(at Sunnyside), Jay (west side of Jamaica), Hall (east side of Jamaica), Queens, Nassau (Mineola), Divide (Hicksville), PD (Patchogue), Valley (Valley Stream) and more?

http://www.lirrhistory.com/towers.html

Hi everyone, I was wondering how track switches are operated. I was under the impression that the towers are responsible for them. Is that always the case? If that is the case, which tower controls the switches in say Freeport or Merrick?

PORT interlocking has dual remote control from either VALLEY or BABYLON. In fact all the interlockings between VALLEY and BABYLON are dual homed so to speak.

Yes the LIAR is unique in that it is still all "tower" controlled, but there has been significant remoting of interlockings so towers function as distributed dispatching centers. This makes the LIAR far less vulnerable to natural disasters and terrorist attack.

Also.... Are the towers manned 24 hours a day? I'm guessing the answer is yes.

Most are, some are not. VAN was two trick before BROOK took it over. If EAST NEW YORK is still open then it is open only as needed. Cabin M in LIC may only be open as needed or part time. Alsom HAROLD is also only open as needed and is usually remote PSCC.

9 I seem to remember: Harold(at Sunnyside), Jay (west side of Jamaica), Hall (east side of Jamaica), Queens, Nassau (Mineola), Divide (Hicksville), PD (Patchogue), Valley (Valley Stream) and more?

you are missing a few LEAD (long beach) DUNTON BROOK BABYLON and BLISS although not really a "tower" open block station summer time
WEST SIDE YARD (a yardmaster and a block operater to control the switches)

Thanks for all the responses guys. You cleared a lot up.

Here's another question.... Some of the towers I've passed seem to be in pretty poor shape. Do you think the LIRR will ever renovate the older ones ? Or will they slowly phase them out one by one?

Based upon recent history, my guess would be to phase out the older ones, keeping the "newer" ones only such as DIVIDE (1962) and BABYLON (1963).

PD (1912) in Patchogue is slated for demolition next month if the new signal system can be made to function properly.

If railroads like CSX can operate state-wide from a non-windowed dispatchers' room in Jacksonville I don't see why, eventually the LIRR can't do the same; so much of it is already RC from some manned location.

Early forms of LIRR CTC remote control.

FOX west of Kings Park:



HARE west of Smithtown:


And POST east of Smithtown:


Dave

Well sadly in the near future LIRR Will probly be 100% remote with the "newer" toweres. Divide, Babylon, with the exceptions of Valley, Jay&Hall and Queens and Nassau. will (if not distoryed) be left there just incase they ever needed to operate like a real railroad again, technology does had a tendancy to have a melt down.

Look at the black out. (yes I know the LIRR Is almost all eletric.) but still. If push came to shove a few cellphones and the opening of towers can keep out trains rolling even with dark signals. maybe a lot of weary armed men and a lot of from 19,s and A/Kcards later but the system can still run a train. With ALL computer control it works fine till a melt down then nothing runs till it gets fixed. Though out dated our system is reliable in 99.9% of what can be thrown out way. where ass ALL computer can strand a train and lock up the RR for as long as it takes to get back online.

They both have plus and minuses.

I say the LIRR has it better off with the remote control broke down by location then all ran from one shit hole. If something craped out say between Divide and Port Jeff, the problem could be narrowed to whats remote by Divide. leaving the rest of the RR running. may be delayed but running.

I don't see Btower ever beting re activated but I will post it to simply brake down this example of remote control via sub locations

Hall, Jamaica East. Jay, Jamaica west. Queens, Hempsted/Belmont/The bay/ Signal bridge by roslyn rd. Divide. Anythign east of roslyn rd. and to port Jeff. Beth(odds are also Divide)All tracks from Bethpage station to Greenport and the Central branch. Babylon. Monauk East. and Shares with Valley the tracks between Babylon and Valley. Valley controls Far rock, Long beach (makeing Lead no more) and All tracks west to Halls Easterly limits.

For argument sake, Say There was a computer mlet down at Valley, The Rest of the LIRR can still operate with minimal delays. Leaving just the south side parilized.

Next question: in regards to redundency or back up, is there any back up location for dispatchers to operate from in case of emergency or other need? Do complete job from one location? OR just direct others from one location?
Part B of course would be: is Divide or any other location large enough to do the job?

Jersey Mike made mention of Cabin M.
Cabin M was never considered a tower or block station.
It was manned by a bridge tender for B&B dept.
He could not issue orders but he could work the signals which were only used for the purpose of showing the bridge to be open or closed position.
He worked the bridges over Dutch Kills on the Montauk cutoff as well as on secondary C.
And yes, since there is very little traffic on the Kills these days, it is only manned by appointment.

First, it counts as a tower if it has direct control of local signals and/or interlocking applicances. This this means M CABIN is a tower.

Second, the LIRR has no plans to dump the tower system as of yet and seems to be heading to a system of towers with supervisory dispatchers. The JAY/HALL rebuild plan called for both towers to remain open, but the Model-14's replaced with computers. A central dispatcher would ovserve the action and tower operators would have first crack at bending the iron. If an operator gets sick or is late the dispatcher can take over. The dispatcher can also use big picture knowledge to overide local operators as well.

If you care more about moving trains with a minimum of delay than pinching every penny a multi-tiered supervisory systems will work the best. You get all of flexibility of centralized dispatch with none of the potential problems where dispatchers get overworked. Look at Metro-North, If you upset their timetable it'll fuck the whole line up because dispatchers lack the time to think through an efficient course of action. Look how SEPTA's on time % plunged from 95 to 83 when they closed their towers.

BTW, except for PD, none of the LIRR towers are in danger of falling down and I would hardly describe them as shabby. The PRR knew how to build things back in the day and they'll last for decades more.

Jersey Mike, I have been thumbing through several LIRR Employee Time Tables from over the years.
I haven’t found any reference to “Towers.”
I have, however, found the list at the beginning of the ETTs lists of Interlocking, Interlocking Stations, Block Stations and Block-Limit Stations. The western most such station on the Montauk branch is Bliss.
All of these stations listed are on main track, and the Montauk Cutoff is not a main track.
Before a head on collision in the 1970s, it was yard track, under the jurisdiction of the yardmaster at Yard A. Bliss let trains in, by signal indication, after conferring with the yardmaster.
Yardmaster gave permission to enter from Yard A and Bliss was notified of the train’s movement and as to its destination, number of cars, eng.#, etc.
Nobody notified the bridge tender at Cabin M of anything. HE, However, had to get permission from the yardmaster to raise the bridge when it was needed.
After the head on collision, all jurisdiction went to the operator at Bliss. At that time, anyone entering the Cutoff or Secondary C, except AT Bliss, would have to copy an “S” card, issued by Bliss.
Signals were displayed to trains at several locations that were not Block Stations or “Towers”
Entering Yard A from the Westbound Cutoff a dwarf signal was mounted on the Thompson Ave bridge and displayed a stop until the switch tender at Thompson Ave turned the handle in his shanty to display a restricting. After doing so, a hand sign with a yellow flag would be required.
The conductors on the Yard A Hump and at 8th Street Hill both signaled the engine crew by means of a high position light signal.
This was also used on the Holban Hump where two of these signals were all they could have to convey the conductors message. If a third signal had been required, then contract questions would arise from another craft.
Entering Hillside, freights, or any other type of move, would have to get off at the T-box at the sub-station to advise the clerk at Hillside that they needed the signal (much like Thompson Ave) that they were ready to enter the yard.
`As I said in my post, Cabin M was not nor is it a tower OR a block station. It did not control the movement of trains but was there to open the bridges under his command---when he had permission to do so.

Nice shot, JJ!

Here's one I took back in 1970:


And "DB" at Dutch Kills "drawbridge":


And "BLISS" (the newer one):


Dave

Thanks, Dave
I did not take that but got it from someone's web site years ago. If they see it, take it as a compliment and not get mad.
I have been using it as wallpaper for my desktop and I have you and Dick to thank for helping me to get my first picture onto this site.