• Autoracks for high-speed trains?

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

  by lpetrich
 
Please don't laugh too quickly -- that was my response at first.

Someone elsewhere has mentioned that high-speed trains ought to carry automobiles, so I did some researching and some calculations.

The TGV, for instance, has an axle loading of 17 metric tons / axle, as opposed to a more common limit of 30 metric tons / axle (1 metric ton = 1.1 English-unit tons).

I found a page on a apparently-typical autorack railcar. Its empty weight is 54.5 English-unit tons, and its load limit is 35 tons, making a maximum of 89.5 tons. Its floor dimensions are 89 ft by 9 ft, and its external dimensions are 93 ft by 11 ft by 19 ft. It is bilevel, though many autorack railcars are now trilevel.

It has four axles, two per bogie, making its total axle load 14 tons (empty) to 22 tons (full).


It may be possible to build autorack railcars for high-speed duty, though their capacity would be lower than typical ones in service. They'd likely be single-level, to keep structural weight down, and they'd likely have strict weight limits. Using TGV Atlantique as a reference, they'd likely be 20 m / 65 ft long, meaning that they'd carry only about 3/4 of the automobiles that each level of a typical autorack car would carry. Each coach car carries about 54 passengers, and a maximum weight of 220 lbs / 100 kg yields about 5.4 tons of passenger per car. So 5 tons may be a reasonable target for total automobile weight per carrier car.

The lightest automobiles weigh in at about 1 ton (English or metric). Using figures for the VW Rabbit and the Honda Civic, their lengths are about 13-15 ft / 4.0-4.3 m. This means only four automobiles per level without using longer railcars.

Minivans weigh about 2 tons and being 15-16 ft / 4.4-4.8 m long. SUV's are somewhat longer and heavier than minivans, and pickup trucks even longer and heavier (3.5 tons, 17 ft / 5.2 m).


So 4 or 5 compact or subcompact automobiles will not be much trouble, while minivans and SUV's and pickup trucks will likely take up 2 or 3 compact-car weight slots.
  by David Benton
 
too me , this is viable . maybe not for a lesuire traveller , but certainly for sales people , travellers etc . with a small van load full of merchandise on display . even high piroity courier may be a market , load a small ven in one city , on the train to another city and delivery .

loading would have to be side on though to get it fast enough .
  by djlong
 
Spend some time at either the Sanford FL or Lorton VA Auto-Train terminals and you'll see the special circumstances you have to deal with when you start loading and unloading vehicles.

Now - imagine what it's like trying to sort all the vehicles making intermediate stops. Imagine if the Lorton-Sanford route wasn't non-stop. Think about a transcontinental NY-LA route. How would you assemble the train in New York differentiating the vehicles going to LA versus Chicago, Phoenix or St. Louis? And the cars getting on in Cleveland and getting off in Oklahoma City? It isn't like freight where you can just open the side door and let the forklift in.
  by lpetrich
 
The auto-ferry service at the original Loetschberg tunnel between Kandersteg and Goppenstein in Switzerland works in much that fashion:

Lotchberg Tunnel , Switzerland
Lötschberg Transporter Train in a 1973 VW Camper
(YouTube)

You drive into a side-access railcar, then drive the length of the train until you reach either the next car or the other end. The railcars have connecting ramps that let you drive without interruption in the train. You travel in your car, and at the other side of the tunnel, you drive off in similar fashion.

The auto-carrying railcars in the YouTube clips are all single-level, and they had awnings overhead. Auto-carrying railcars for high-speed duty will likely be completely enclosed, and the train will likely have more typical passenger railcars for the passengers to ride in.

The next question is which would be the most appropriate sort of route.

I agree with the others here that it would have to be endpoints-only, to simplify the logistics of getting autos onto and off of the trains. This means that it would be limited to major origins and destinations, like big cities and big vacation spots. It must also travel a relatively long distance, in order to give the train a bigger edge over driving.

The first example that comes to my mind is Paris - Marseille. That's about 482 mi / 776 km by highway, so it's about half the length of Amtrak's Auto-Train route.

London-Marseille would be better, about 771 mi / 1241 km, as would Amsterdam-Marseille, at about 769 mi / 1237 km. When an Avignon - Barcelona connection gets built, the distances will become 686 mi / 1105 km for Paris - Barcelona and 975 mi / 1569 km for London - Barcelona, about the length of Amtrak's Auto Train route.
  by cloudship
 
What is the Eurotunnel Shuttle capable of? i know it runs at 100mph, but that is the restriction of all trains in the tunnel. If it was to be used outside the tunnel, what would it be capable of? And how much do those car weigh?
  by Nasadowsk
 
cloudship wrote:What is the Eurotunnel Shuttle capable of? i know it runs at 100mph, but that is the restriction of all trains in the tunnel. If it was to be used outside the tunnel, what would it be capable of? And how much do those car weigh?
It might be 125mph or slightly higher.

I always thought a smaller form factor autorack, on the auto-train, that could clear 125mph, would be a nice thing, to offer an 'extended' service terminating around Philly or Newark NJ. The biggest issue most up north have with that train is you have to drive 1/2 way to Floridia to get it anyway...
  by lpetrich
 
Nasadowsk, I'll evaluate your idea.

Using the Amfleet railcars, a.k.a. Amcans as a reference, I find:

Weight: 55 - 58 English tons
Length: 85 ft (external)
Width: 10.5 ft (external)
Height: 10.67 ft (external)
Floor Levels: 1
Passengers: up to 84
Max Speed: 120 mph

Passenger weight: up to 8 tons

An Amfleet-like auto carrier will thus be able to carry 4 minivans/SUV's or 5 to 6 (sub)compact autos. That is not very much, so I checked on some pictures of auto-carrier truck trailers. Many of them are bilevel, though the autos in them are often rather awkwardly packed.

Checking on the GE Genesis locomotives, which can travel inside of the NEC's tunnels, I find that its height is 14.67 ft. This is about 4 ft higher than the Amfleet railcars, and possibly enough room for a second level of autos.

I checked on their typical heights, and I found that the Honda Civic, one of the smaller cars, is about 4.8 ft / 1.46 m tall. Minivans are often a foot / 0.3m taller, and SUV's and pickup trucks are often even taller. So it will be a tight squeeze.
  by lpetrich
 
Another source for what one might expect: Amtrak's Auto-Train Travel Tips. Its maximum vehicle sizes:

Regular Vehicle
Height < 5.5 ft
or
Length < 15 ft, Height < 7.33 ft

Oversized Vehicle
Length > 15 ft, Height < 7.33 ft

All autos: Width < 7 ft

Motorcycles can have height up to 4.8 ft

From Eurotunnel's vehicle-types page, most of the auto-carrier railcars are bilevel, but there are single-level ones available for oversized vehicles, those taller than 1.85 m / 6 ft. The maximum weight for a van is 3.5 metric tons, though one can take camper vans, trailers, and even buses aboard. There is also no weight limit for what one can carry in an ordinary auto.

The Eurotunnel Shuttle auto train takes 35 minutes to travel the 50.45 km / 31.35 mi of the Chunnel, meaning an average speed of a little less than 60 mph.


So the vehicle-carrying part of a bilevel auto carrier would likely be about 12 ft tall. Adding the bogie height will produce a very tight squeeze in the Northeast Corridor tunnels.
  by Nasadowsk
 
Motorcycles can have height up to 4.8 ft
Image

Poor guy's outta luck ;)
  by David Benton
 
Nasadowsk wrote:
Motorcycles can have height up to 4.8 ft
Image

Poor guy's outta luck ;)
I would say he was outa luck when he brought that thing ...
  by Nasadowsk
 
David Benton wrote: I would say he was outa luck when he brought that thing ...
I don't know what motivates folks to do stuff like that. The sissy brand upswept pipes aren't too bad, but those handlebars are just plain silly. Likely made them himself, nobody even offers anything remotely close to that.

FWIW, a lot of states limit the height to below the shoulders, though honestly, they're not even comfortable that high...
  by george matthews
 
Nasadowsk wrote:
cloudship wrote:What is the Eurotunnel Shuttle capable of? i know it runs at 100mph, but that is the restriction of all trains in the tunnel. If it was to be used outside the tunnel, what would it be capable of? And how much do those car weigh?
It might be 125mph or slightly higher.

I always thought a smaller form factor autorack, on the auto-train, that could clear 125mph, would be a nice thing, to offer an 'extended' service terminating around Philly or Newark NJ. The biggest issue most up north have with that train is you have to drive 1/2 way to Floridia to get it anyway...
The Eurotunnel shuttle loading gauge is so large that there is no line anywhere in the world it could run. It is designed to run at the speed it does run at.
  by neroden
 
george matthews wrote: The Eurotunnel shuttle loading gauge is so large that there is no line anywhere in the world it could run. It is designed to run at the speed it does run at.
You mean no high-speed line perhaps?

We've got lots of US lines it would fit on (if they were electrified) -- this is the home of the doublestack, remember. Europe has *much* smaller freight loading gauges than the US.

Russia also has generous loading gauges. Of course it has a different track gauge, but if not for that, Russia could also run Eurotunnel shuttle vehicles.

China is likely to have lines with enough clearance as well. Not an awful lot of structures to restrict clearance.
  by george matthews
 
neroden wrote:
george matthews wrote: The Eurotunnel shuttle loading gauge is so large that there is no line anywhere in the world it could run. It is designed to run at the speed it does run at.
You mean no high-speed line perhaps?

We've got lots of US lines it would fit on (if they were electrified) -- this is the home of the doublestack, remember. Europe has *much* smaller freight loading gauges than the US.

Russia also has generous loading gauges. Of course it has a different track gauge, but if not for that, Russia could also run Eurotunnel shuttle vehicles.

China is likely to have lines with enough clearance as well. Not an awful lot of structures to restrict clearance.
Here is a picture of one of the car shuttles.
http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews ... atform.jpg
I doubt if these shuttle carriages could run on any other line. They also need extremely well maintained track.