Asheville North Carolina Service

Reading this list. None of this Winston to Raleigh stuff makes sense with already 8 turns on the H Line plus timing in the Crescent and the Florida trains.

Charlotte to Winston has 2 options --- all are just silly
-Charlotte through Huntersville, Davidson, Mooresville and Mocksville stenciled in to Winston, but the bridge muddy creek is why the line was shut down.
-Charlotte up the main line to the WSSB at Lexington and north to Winston. Which that is just the Piedmont bypassing High Point on a slower set of tracks.

Winston to Raleigh...
This really just feels like a Piedmont run bypassing High Point and adding Winston is the goal. But to what gain? ITs going to cost of load to upgrade the tracks to get any type of speeds. There's mountains of grade crossing everywhere that will cause speed restrictions.

Morehead City I laughed at originally, but then I got to thinking, it's going to be slow going through Morehead. But it would be easy to package in bus service to drop off beachgoers. And you could park over at Beaufort at the last stop. You get New Bern, Kinston, Goldsboro, into it.

Wilmington should have 2 runs.
1) is Charlotte-Monroe-Hamlet-Lumberton-Wilmington
2) Wilmington-Lumberton-Pembroke-Fayetteville-Raleigh

To me looking at the list, the only things that make sense are:
1) Wilmington Service that ties in a run that is Charlotte, through the Piedmont Corridor to Wilmington
2) A direct Charlotte to Wilmington run
3) A run to Morehead City (which would just be the Crystal Coast run) and would really just be tourists and military
4) A piedmont extension to Gastonia (or Kings Mountain which doesn't seem overly worth it)

And in all honesty, this should all get away from Amtrak. They should tie into connections with the Crescent and Florida service, but feels like Amtrak is holding them back.

rallyrabbit wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 2:29 pm Reading this list. None of this Winston to Raleigh stuff makes sense with already 8 turns on the H Line plus timing in the Crescent and the Florida trains.

Charlotte to Winston has 2 options --- all are just silly
-Charlotte through Huntersville, Davidson, Mooresville and Mocksville stenciled in to Winston, but the bridge muddy creek is why the line was shut down.
-Charlotte up the main line to the WSSB at Lexington and north to Winston. Which that is just the Piedmont bypassing High Point on a slower set of tracks.

Winston to Raleigh...
This really just feels like a Piedmont run bypassing High Point and adding Winston is the goal. But to what gain? ITs going to cost of load to upgrade the tracks to get any type of speeds. There's mountains of grade crossing everywhere that will cause speed restrictions.

Morehead City I laughed at originally, but then I got to thinking, it's going to be slow going through Morehead. But it would be easy to package in bus service to drop off beachgoers. And you could park over at Beaufort at the last stop. You get New Bern, Kinston, Goldsboro, into it.

Wilmington should have 2 runs.
1) is Charlotte-Monroe-Hamlet-Lumberton-Wilmington
2) Wilmington-Lumberton-Pembroke-Fayetteville-Raleigh

To me looking at the list, the only things that make sense are:
1) Wilmington Service that ties in a run that is Charlotte, through the Piedmont Corridor to Wilmington
2) A direct Charlotte to Wilmington run
3) A run to Morehead City (which would just be the Crystal Coast run) and would really just be tourists and military
4) A piedmont extension to Gastonia (or Kings Mountain which doesn't seem overly worth it)

And in all honesty, this should all get away from Amtrak. They should tie into connections with the Crescent and Florida service, but feels like Amtrak is holding them back.

NCDOT needs to bite the bullet and double track the H-Line. NS only uses it lightly (and probably less every year), but they have been eager to use it to extort cash from NCDOT. Double tracking it for intercity passenger traffic would 1) be on state owned tracks, and 2) clear the way for Triangle Area commuter rail (which has arguably been the most poorly planned (and desperately needed) rail project in the US for more than 20 years)

I disagree on the Winston-Raleigh connection being silly. The Wake Research Campus downtown is a huge success, and both it, and RTP would greatly benefit from stronger connections between the two. Winston is the 5th largest city in the state, and it has significant capacity to accommodate more folks if they had better access to jobs.

Winston-Charlotte via the NS O-Line may bring substantial benefits to Charlotte in the form of Red Line commuter rail (something that is frozen now due to NS intransigence, but Amtrak could twist the necessary arms for intercity service on the tracks). I agree that the WSSB route is kinda pointless given the emptiness of the Lexington-Winston run.

I am also warming to Morehead service, but there will be no trainset parking in Beaufort. The tracks across Gallants Channel have been torn out so nothing is gonna move east of Radio Island.

Charlotte-Wilmington direct on CSX has never made much sense to me. Its nearly all single track and everything east of Hamlet is the Port of Wilmington's only rail connection to the outside world. Making that track marginally more congested (not much traffic on it now) only makes the port less competitive (and its struggling as is). I think CLT-RGH-Wilmington would only be marginally slower, and allow that money to be spend more productively elsewhere. If Union County was even marginally interested in commuter rail to Charlotte I might have a different perspective, but that aint gonna happen.

A Piedmont extension to Kings Mountain (which is almost Shelby) makes a ton of sense, but Norfolk Southern is going to expect a fortune for upgrades. The service would need a new Gastonia Station. Amtrak has gotta be the operator here because NS has shown they are going to stand in the way of any other carrier.

I eagerly await the corridor planning recipient announcement. I am certain the S-Line shortcut gets funds, and Wilmington-Raleigh is a near sure thing. Beyond that, I am not sure what NC will end up with.

To nod to the thread topic, I'll say that Asheville service will be so slow as to be pointless. I think new route money is better spent elsewhere.

Just looking at a map, the line through Winston Salem from Roanoke to Charlotte looks like it could have potential as an intermodal speedway if the numbers add up for NS. Yes, it would be quite a bit of work and cost, but if it is feasible, why not? I feel sure that NS has this in the back part of their mind, if for no more than bargaining leverage with NCRR.

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 4:53 pm To nod to the thread topic, I'll say that Asheville service will be so slow as to be pointless. I think new route money is better spent elsewhere.

Wholly agree, Mr. Roberts.

I think that NCDOT - even if they do not have the same market as, say, The Corridor or that found within "Virginia is for Train Lovers", have recognized what 21st century rail passenger service is all about - connecting the Research Triangle with other parts of the State which can support passenger transportation by rail, as distinct from joyrides and other like ancillary activities.

Now so far as passenger service to Wilmington, such of course would not be a "bring back the Carolina Creeper (ACL's Palmetto)", but I would have figured with the flatland topography, improvements to FRA Class 4 (the "benchmark" for passenger trains) would not be off the financial charts. I'm also surprised to learn that the Port of Wilmington is "struggling" (my "two roads" theory that the maritime companies want could be in play), but I guess any surge that port had was COVID related - and the pandemic ended on May 11 last .

Finally a WAAAY OT aside, I "went in" for my COVID Booster, and no longer does the pharmacy post your CDC shot card. There is no longer any requirement to carry it with you, so mine now rests in my archives along with four expired Passports and my 1960 WHO Yellow shot record that was needed for my 1960 "Family trip to Europe".

Agree that a slow train to Asheville seems like a low priority when there’s so much more power in building up the current Piedmont corridor and the S-Line.

If the state wants to do more, why not an eastern expansion centered on Goldsboro to Wilmington? Make a little hub at Goldsboro and create an Amtrak day train NY-Wash-Richmond-Wilson-Goldsboro-Wilmington. Some Piedmont trains end at Goldsboro, and a few go on to Wilmington each day.

There might be value in getting tourists to Asheville by train, but there could be more value getting tourists and other Yankees to Wilmington, a rapidly growing, historic, beach town.

Speaking of Asheville, here's an opinion: Citizen-Times.com

Opinion: Does proposed passenger rail service from Asheville to Salisbury make sense?

Before we all get carried away with how wonderful it would be to bring back passenger rail service to Asheville, let’s take a closer look at the proposed service. There may be another option that would provide better service at a lower cost.

The proposed rail service would link Asheville to Salisbury, with three round trips a day. Why Salisbury? Because that’s where the tracks go. But is that where people want to travel? More likely trip destinations include Charlotte, Greensboro, Durham and Raleigh. Passengers going to any of those destinations by rail would have to transfer at Salisbury.

In addition to the forced transfer, travel times would be adversely affected by the slow speeds imposed by the extremely circuitous track alignment on the long grade between Old Fort and Black Mountain. While that section might be fun for an excursion train, it makes the rail travel time less competitive with highway travel. A trip by rail from Asheville to Charlotte would involve a 3 hour and 40-minute train ride from Asheville to Salisbury, a transfer time of somewhere between 30 minutes and two hours, and another 45-minute train ride from Salisbury to Charlotte, or roughly 5-6 hours total. One can drive to Charlotte in two hours. Bus service, including several intermediate stops, takes just under three hours. Direct bus service to Greensboro would also be faster than using rail with a transfer at Salisbury.
...

Re: Crystal Coast - I would put the Morehead City stop at the foot of the bridge to Atlantic Beach, and create a frequent bus (or ideally tram) route linking Atlantic Beach, Morehead City, and Beaufort. The ability to do a car-free day or overnight trip to these places (plus New Bern, one of my favorite places in NC) would be amazing.

I agree with the consensus that the focus in NC should be on building up the core Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh capacity while adding network extensions that make sense. As much as I would like Asheville to be on that list, nothing short of base tunneling the Blue Ridge will allow for competitive travel times by train. Such a tunnel is technically feasible but makes no sense unless part of a larger route (like Charlotte-Asheville-Knoxville-Lexington, for a direct Carolinas-Midwest link). In other words, not happening any time soon.

being from north of Ashville IMO 3 RT daily Ashville service on the Old Fort route just does not make sense. As others have posted it is time to build the other areas. Yes I would like to see CLT - Ashville - Canton - Bryson City - Murphy slow service but it means to be for tourist in the future. Now 30 years from now who knows?

west point wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:22 pm being from north of Ashville IMO 3 RT daily Ashville service on the Old Fort route just does not make sense. As others have posted it is time to build the other areas. Yes I would like to see CLT - Ashville - Canton - Bryson City - Murphy slow service but it means to be for tourist in the future. Now 30 years from now who knows?

I am super sad that the Saluda Grade got sold off for a trail. The best Asheville service would have been a branch off Charlotte-Atlanta from Spartanburg, which would have allowed for a Hendersonville stop (and a Brevard branch, RIP those tracks as well) connection. Sigh. I can still dream, but a pro-rail SC government doesn't even materialize while I am sleeping.

I have also had dreams of Swiss-style Blue Ridge regional service (Avl hub to Black Mountain, Canton, Marshall and Hendersonville) but then I wake up and realize all of those places may have the least concentrated employment in the country along with no way of getting trains into downtown Asheville (removing a couple of lanes from 240 is tempting).

Spent a few days in supposedly liberal, environmentalist Asheville in June. Traffic jams on highways in a town of a hundred thousand. It is not a train kind of town.

Bob Roberts wrote: I am super sad that the Saluda Grade got sold off for a trail. The best Asheville service would have been a branch off Charlotte-Atlanta from Spartanburg, which would have allowed for a Hendersonville stop (and a Brevard branch, RIP those tracks as well) connection. Sigh. I can still dream, but a pro-rail SC government doesn't even materialize while I am sleeping.

I have also had dreams of Swiss-style Blue Ridge regional service (Avl hub to Black Mountain, Canton, Marshall and Hendersonville) but then I wake up and realize all of those places may have the least concentrated employment in the country along with no way of getting trains into downtown Asheville (removing a couple of lanes from 240 is tempting).

It’s as if you forget why Saluda was sold off in the first place: the grades. Have fun with passenger trains slogging along at 5 mph up 5% grades.

Your only realistic option of having trains into Asheville is via old fort loops. And that’s obviously a route that is slow enough to where it provides little transit benefit.

Like I said at the beginning of the thread, if NC is to expand their passenger service, Wilmington needs to be high on the priority list, then everything else, then Asheville.

Steamguy73 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:04 am
It’s as if you forget why Saluda was sold off in the first place: the grades. Have fun with passenger trains slogging along at 5 mph up 5% grades.

Agree on Asheville last.

I didn't forget about the 5% grade, its a much straighter (and potentially faster) route than Old Fort thanks to the grade. While its certainly steep by US freight rail standards, such a grade would be trivial for Swiss style rail operations. Zurich to Uetilberg is 7.9% and goes reasonably fast uphill, while Montreux-Link is 7.3% and also runs at reasonable speeds. Both are adhesion lines that run without helpers. Having said that, this is all academic at this point, the Saluda route is now gone.

To get passenger services to Wilmington from Raleigh via Goldsboro will require that a rail corridor with no tracks needs to be rebuilt, but that getting passenger services to Asheville will require that existing in use rail be upgraded.

When the Carolinian was introduced, NCDOT and Amtrak were surprised by of the number of passengers traveling between intermediate destinations. In other words, it's entirely possible that passengers from Hickory east will be the bulk of travelers, but at the same time, not serving Asheville is politically untenable.

NCDOT needs to stop thinking of Raleigh as some sort of rail hub for NC. Raleigh to Wilmington doesn't make sense, Charlotte to Wilmington does. A train will never be as fast as I-40.

More sense:

• Finish the Harrisburg, Lexington, Hillsborough stations
• Charlotte-Monroe-Wadesboro-Hamlet-Pembroke-Lumberton-Wilmington
• Raleigh-Selma-Goldsboro-Kinston-New Bern-Havelock-Morehead City with connections to Crystal Coast, Beaufort and Harkers, Ocracoke Ferry

Goldsboro to Wilmington, the lines has to be rebuilt from Wallace to Wilmington and there's no population on that corridor toe justify it.

The others that make sense:

• Fayetteville and Southern Pines are missing tie-ins - this could be tied in, but that line there run by RJ Corman is more of a commuter rail
• Charlotte-Huntersville-Mooresville-Mocksville-Winston-Kernersville-Greensboro is going to be tough. The Charlotte end has a TON of grade crossings in high traffic areas, there's nothing in the middle, the Forsyth County side will have to be rebuilt, the entire Forsyth and Guilford County portions are populated, high traffic with a ton of grade crossings. This line would make the H-Line look like high speed rail.

rallyrabbit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:10 pm NCDOT needs to stop thinking of Raleigh as some sort of rail hub for NC. Raleigh to Wilmington doesn't make sense, Charlotte to Wilmington does. A train will never be as fast as I-40.

More sense:

• Raleigh-Selma-Goldsboro-Kinston-New Bern-Havelock-Morehead City with connections to Crystal Coast, Beaufort and Harkers, Ocracoke Ferry

Goldsboro to Wilmington, the lines has to be rebuilt from Wallace to Wilmington and there's no population on that corridor toe justify it.

The others that make sense:

• Charlotte-Huntersville-Mooresville-Mocksville-Winston-Kernersville-Greensboro is going to be tough. The Charlotte end has a TON of grade crossings in high traffic areas, there's nothing in the middle, the Forsyth County side will have to be rebuilt, the entire Forsyth and Guilford County portions are populated, high traffic with a ton of grade crossings. This line would make the H-Line look like high speed rail.

I dunno. As a 24 year Charlotte resident, 20 year Durham resident, and frequent traveler to Pender County beaches every summer, I gotta say that Wilmington has much stronger ties to the Triangle than to Charlotte. While the Charlotte to Wilmington tracks are certainly straight, they are the only freight tracks that connect the port of Wilmington to the outside world. This is not to say CSX moves a ton of freight on the line, but I doubt the state wants to make landside activities at the port any tougher/slower. The Goldsboro route manages to avoid any port interference.

While the Duplin and Pender County tracks will need a rebuild, the state does at least own them already, and the northern portion of the route, which CSX still uses, only carries hog feed. I would bet CSX would be happy to sell the remainder of the Goldsboro to Wilmington tracks to NCDOT as long as they could maintain some freight rights. The hog feed traffic does see a good bit of competition from trucks. While Duplin County passenger rail is on no ones priority list, connecting Goldsboro to Raleigh would be a huge boon to the city (once one of the most important on the Coastal Plain)

I do like the idea of a rail terminus at an Ocracoke ferry dock, but construction of any tracks east of Beaufort would be nearly the same level of difficulty as building a railroad through the Everglades and with roughly the same net benefit. (and the Radio Island -Beaufort tracks were removed a few years ago).

Rebuilding the O-Line in Winston and Charlotte would certainly be complicated, however, when viewed in combination with the Charlotte-Moresville and possibly Greensboro-Winston commuter rail the ROI on this investment could be substantial. In addition the Wake Forest Innovation Quarter would hugely benefit from a rapid rail connection to Triangle area universities (as well as the Medical School and research campus that Wake is now building in central Charlotte). I do think that an intercity route between Winston and Charlotte (operated by Amtrak using their statutory authority to get track access) is the only thing that will break the tracks loose from NS for Charlotte area commuter rail (NS has been intransigent about granting access to CATS, almost certainly as a negotiating tactic on the NCRR lease)