Amtrak vs Megabus Round 2

Many people cite the value of Amtrak Long Distance trains to rural areas after airlines largely stopped serving such communities and then Greyhound cut back some years ago. More recently some of the new discount bus services seemed to step in to fill the void. Well it looks like they are stepping out again and leaving rural communities in the lurch. Just an FYI for those who get into Train vs Bus arguments with the Anti-Amtrak LD crowd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/by ... -void.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There simply isn't enough business along rural routes to support for-profit operators like Megabus, hence it's only subsidized local transit authorities like the one mentioned in the article that can provide stable service. On the other hand, sticking to Texas per the article, how much Amtrak service is there between, say, Dallas and Houston? And Amtrak's service between Houston and San Antonio, or Dallas-Austin-San Antonio, is minimal to say the least. That's where the bus market is.

Interesting article about one particular service in Texas. That said, it reinforces the similarities between Amtrak and Megabus. Neither company tends to be interested in service to rural areas, though Amtrak does make more of an effort (as far as I can tell) to serve small towns directly along its routes, while Megabus is able to more quickly add profitable service to medium-sized towns that can't yet support Amtrak.

Megabus has begun service to 40 intercity corridors in the past 7 years. Amtrak has begun service to Brunswick, ME and Norfolk over the same 7 years. In the next 7 years, additional rail corridor service is proposed to Roanoke. None of those 3 corridors has been initiated by Amtrak. The possibility that Amtrak could add 40 intercity corridors in the next 7 years is unthinkable. The possibility of Megabus adding another 40 intercity routes in the next 7 years is not. Megabus has demonstrated a managerial speed that is not merely measured in mph.

*Edit: I suppose to be complete I should include proposed Amtrak service from Miami to Jacksonville, Chicago to Moline, and Chicago to Dubuque, although there's been so little news on these corridors lately that it's easy to question Amtrak's commitment to these routes.

John's on to something here, and I'd like to elaborate a few firsthand observations I've made. I like Amtrak and train travel, but these are some "hard truths".

1. Any pretense of Amtrak as "essential travel mode" is a crock. Yes, they serve some communities that are wayyy out in the boons, but there's maybe 100 such towns served by 1x/day LD trains. What do the other 10,000 such towns do for transport? They drive. I really wish we'd drop this "essential travel mode stuff". Look at the builder - a large block of riders are retirees looking for a joyride, not backwoods Montana residents looking for a ride to the nearest city with a doctor.

2. I've spent a bit of time on Megabus. The fare was commensurate with Amtrak's. The bus was PACKED. The service was significantly sub-par. No intermediate stops. No food of any sort. Awful seating - cramped and hard. What does this tell us? Amtrak could either raise fares for current coach corridor service, a lot, or they could add a far more dense seating arrangement at the same fare structure. They can also dump cafes, which are purveyors of terrible food and serious money pits.

jstolberg wrote:Megabus has begun service to 40 intercity corridors in the past 7 years. Amtrak has begun service to Brunswick, ME and Norfolk over the same 7 years. In the next 7 years, additional rail corridor service is proposed to Roanoke. None of those 3 corridors has been initiated by Amtrak. The possibility that Amtrak could add 40 intercity corridors in the next 7 years is unthinkable. The possibility of Megabus adding another 40 intercity routes in the next 7 years is not. Megabus has demonstrated a managerial speed that is not merely measured in mph.

*Edit: I suppose to be complete I should include proposed Amtrak service from Miami to Jacksonville, Chicago to Moline, and Chicago to Dubuque, although there's been so little news on these corridors lately that it's easy to question Amtrak's commitment to these routes.

As the "Chinatown" bus operators demonstrate, the regulatory barriers to operating intercity bus service in this country are non-existent. By way of example, for Megabus to operate bus service between Chicago and Louisville involves designating some places to stop in both cities (minimal infrastructure, no buildings) and driving a large vehicle over federally- and state-funding roads. These roads already exist. They will be maintained whether Megabus operates or not. Megabus need only pay its employees and purchase sufficient fuel to operate the bus. Buses themselves are readily available for purchase. Megabus has equal access to the roads it travels on.

Amtrak? The tracks between Chicago and Louisville are in terrible condition. They are owned by private companies uninterested in passenger service. The distance between the two cities is 300 miles, so any service resumption would require the cooperation of Illinois, Indiana, and Kentucky. The latter two are not rail-friendly. Capital improvements to the tracks would probably require federal assistance as well, and ongoing support will be needed to maintain the tracks in a state suitable for passenger service. New service will require new equipment from a limited pool of manufactures with long lead times. Extensive federal safety regulations (effectively) prevent importing equipment from abroad. Assuming the equipment is acquired, Amtrak will be at the mercy of said private freight companies for dispatching over their lines.

I'd love to see Megabus' managers succeed in that environment.

"They can also dump cafes, which are purveyors of terrible food and serious money pits."

Serious money pits? I guess that's because of the labor?
FWIW I was pleasantly surprised that the western trains cafe/snack bar (under the dome) had a slightly better variety than the NEC trains. At least of snacking options: I remember getting a pretty delicious gourmet trail mix and a few other nice things. Sure they were hugely marked up but I didn't mind - like someone said hardly anyone actually "commutes" on those trains. They are for vacationers. OTOH the diner car's meals, though included with the price of my sleeping compartment, seemed middling-to-poor. The breakfast was best. The so-called Angus hamburger was borderline awful, rubbery, way overcooked and more processed seeming than expected. Almost as bad as what you'd get microwaved in an NEC cafe car. The entrees were a little better but still not even as good as what you'd get in a place like Perkin's or Denny's, where I only eat under duress, generally speaking.

As I've said before some kind of cafe service gives Amtrak an edge over the (mega)bus, among other things. I think it would be foolish to get rid of them, generally speaking, or even switch to carts. But keeping up standards doesn't seem to be a priority right now, for example, I used to get hot dogs in the morning on the 151 or 181, now they don't even carry them in the morning. Leaving the digusting jimmy dean egg, sausage, cheese & cardboard mini-sandwich as the only substantive breakfast option. (most important meal of the day!) It's a freakin refrigerated hot dog for crying out loud, how hard is it to stock a few in the morning? If you're going to pay someone to stand there, at least give them a reasonable variety of things to sell. How 'bout this: if labor is the problem, convert the NEC & short haul cafe cars (eventually, over many years) to some kind of automated, super-sized vending machine. I think there are ones that are even capable of microwaving things. Let's face it 50% of the people just buy coffee, and I doubt anyone buys alcohol on the 1/2 of NEC trains before 3pm since apparently that was a problem w/previous automat experiments. (Anyhow in 5 years time all drivers licenses will be scannable, for example...the vending machine of the future could check)

You've got to sell a lot of Amburgers or microwave pizzas to make up the lost revenue of 74 seats that would otherwise occupy that space. You've also probably got triple the maintenance costs, because of all the food prep equipment. It's accepted gospel that cafes and diners have been money pits since time immemorial.

Tadman wrote:You've got to sell a lot of Amburgers or microwave pizzas to make up the lost revenue of 74 seats that would otherwise occupy that space. You've also probably got triple the maintenance costs, because of all the food prep equipment. It's accepted gospel that cafes and diners have been money pits since time immemorial.

You don't lose all 74 seats. Not only are the tables sold in high demand periods, simply having a place for passengers to go and sit down that's not their seat provides a valuable service. Furthermore Amtrak does sell a lot of food and could make things even more profitable by contracting out the service.

jstolberg wrote:Megabus has begun service to 40 intercity corridors in the past 7 years. Amtrak has begun service to Brunswick, ME and Norfolk over the same 7 years. In the next 7 years, additional rail corridor service is proposed to Roanoke. None of those 3 corridors has been initiated by Amtrak. The possibility that Amtrak could add 40 intercity corridors in the next 7 years is unthinkable. The possibility of Megabus adding another 40 intercity routes in the next 7 years is not. Megabus has demonstrated a managerial speed that is not merely measured in mph.

*Edit: I suppose to be complete I should include proposed Amtrak service from Miami to Jacksonville, Chicago to Moline, and Chicago to Dubuque, although there's been so little news on these corridors lately that it's easy to question Amtrak's commitment to these routes.

this is the single biggest problem with amtrak (and frustration as a passenger rail advocate). it is a for profit corporation that wants to be a bumbling government bureaucracy (and often succeeds). it has no initiative on its own except to bend whichever way the wind is blowing.


comment on the empire builder-that's probably the worst of the bunch to pick since it actually does carry people to/from places in ND and montana...much more so than the other two western trains. still, your basic point is right, it isn't essential service nor is it a good way to offer it. of course, it's debatable as to how much was EAS is really a good use of money as well.

Tadman wrote:You've got to sell a lot of Amburgers or microwave pizzas to make up the lost revenue of 74 seats that would otherwise occupy that space. You've also probably got triple the maintenance costs, because of all the food prep equipment. It's accepted gospel that cafes and diners have been money pits since time immemorial.

Yes, but Amcafes are an amenity that lots of riders like -- just sit for a while in an NEC cafe cars and watch how busy the attendant is -- and certainly contribute something to Amtrak's marketability. People like to be able to get up after an hour or two in their seat, take a walk, and purchase hot food and cold alcoholic beverages as well as the sort of sandwiches and drinks that they can bring on board themselves if they wish.

One could also argue that the Acela coaches are space-inefficient and should be converted to high-density seating so that more people could fit into those fixed-length trainsets and more tickets could be sold. But no one would seriously suggest that since the big comfy seats are one of the selling points of the service. Similarly, cafe cars are one of the things that lead people to pay quite a bit more to take Amtrak rather than Megabus between Boston and New York. They're part of a whole service package.

jstolberg wrote:Megabus has begun service to 40 intercity corridors in the past 7 years. Amtrak has begun service to Brunswick, ME and Norfolk over the same 7 years. In the next 7 years, additional rail corridor service is proposed to Roanoke. None of those 3 corridors has been initiated by Amtrak. The possibility that Amtrak could add 40 intercity corridors in the next 7 years is unthinkable. The possibility of Megabus adding another 40 intercity routes in the next 7 years is not. Megabus has demonstrated a managerial speed that is not merely measured in mph.

*Edit: I suppose to be complete I should include proposed Amtrak service from Miami to Jacksonville, Chicago to Moline, and Chicago to Dubuque, although there's been so little news on these corridors lately that it's easy to question Amtrak's commitment to these routes.

Yes, but such flexibility is a bit easier when you can freeload on publicly built infrastructure.

"cafe cars are one of the things that lead people to pay quite a bit more to take Amtrak"

Totally agree. Whatever the apparently bottom line cost of running the cafe car is, somehow there's a hidden revenue benefit of it. I'm sure of that.

The cafe cars have always been loss leaders, especially on the NEC. They lose money in order to make money since the one selling point of taking the train is having the ability to get up and walk to the cafe car and get food. I definitely appreciate the cafe car on the Empire Service trains west of Albany, that is a long ride to take end to end without getting any food or something to drink.

Suburban Station wrote: this is the single biggest problem with amtrak (and frustration as a passenger rail advocate). it is a for profit corporation that wants to be a bumbling government bureaucracy (and often succeeds). it has no initiative on its own except to bend whichever way the wind is blowing.

From Amtrak's Strategic Plan:

Business Line Strategy 3: Pursue train and/or bus service development opportunities for select corridors that are
currently underserved and represent high strategic and financial value for Amtrak.

Aligns With Business Line Goal(s): 3 – Financial Performance

Amtrak believes there are numerous opportunities to begin new service between markets that would benefit
greatly from rail and/or Thruway bus service connections. However, the company recognizes the need to be judicious
in the deployment of resources needed to pursue these opportunities. Therefore, a thorough internal analysis
of potential markets will be conducted to identify and prioritize new service opportunities.

Specific characteristics that will be considered include:
• Distance between markets
• Population growth
• Existing transportation options
• Competitive advantages
• Connection opportunities to existing Amtrak system
• Estimated bottom line contribution (to be confirmed through Service Development Plan process)

Amtrak will then seek funding from applicable state(s) and/or the Federal Railroad Administration to complete
Service Development Plans.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/30/12/Strat ... 1-2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; page 45 (49 of the pdf)

Megabus' experience clearly shows that the opportunities are out there. Yet despite this Business Line Strategy, Amtrak has waited on the states to initiate (and execute) new service proposals. Amtrak doesn't have a plan to begin 7 new intercity services in the next 7 years. Lacking this plan, they don't have a plan to acquire the necessary rolling stock for new corridor services. If it were not for a new bi-level car order initiated California and several Midwest states freeing up the Horizon cars, they wouldn't have cars necessary to start new service in Florida.

The FRA gives the states some guidance on starting new service, but states mostly have to rely on the expertise they have in house or can get from consultants they hire. Amtrak doesn't come to them and say, "We have some prototype platform plans you can use," or "here is a design for a typical small-town station that you can adapt." Amtrak doesn't offer their geometry car to help states decide whether something short of a complete track removal and replacement will meet the MAS necessary for their proposed service. Amtrak doesn't say, "We have a full-time press office. We can help you promote your route." Or, "We have an advertising department that may be able to generate some materials." Each project proposed by the states has its own website. Unfortunately, most are quite obscure. Amtrak.com doesn't link to them.