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Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Batman2
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Obviously the Recession has favorably affected off-Corridor ridership and no doubt propelled by the quite low Coach fares Amtrak offers. What remains to be seen is when the economy recovers, how many will become "never agains"?
I'd be more interested in the question of how much fares increase once the economy improves; demand will obviously increase as people begin traveling again, but I think the likelihood of people returning to air and car travel could (optimistically) stay low. For air travel the increasing consolidation over the past years, including the Delta-Northwest merger, brings us closer to a monopoly among the legacy carriers, while the traveling public is increasingly demanding populist rules that would hamper the competitive advantage that the low-cost carriers currently have, which will raise prices there for only minor improvements in service quality. Car travel will always be dependent on oil prices, not to mention that business travelers increasingly want (read: are required to) to be able to use their phones and/or laptops while driving. In short, Amtrak might not lose passengers as the economy improves due to the other modes facing long-term problems. The conclusion I'd draw is that Amtrak is going to see growth, but the increasing profitability of some of the IC routes might lead to critics demanding more widespread profits throughout the system and a resumed focus on profitability as a prerequisite for rail service.
  by Station Aficionado
 
Batman2 wrote:
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Obviously the Recession has favorably affected off-Corridor ridership and no doubt propelled by the quite low Coach fares Amtrak offers. What remains to be seen is when the economy recovers, how many will become "never agains"?
I'd be more interested in the question of how much fares increase once the economy improves; demand will obviously increase as people begin traveling again, but I think the likelihood of people returning to air and car travel could (optimistically) stay low. For air travel the increasing consolidation over the past years, including the Delta-Northwest merger, brings us closer to a monopoly among the legacy carriers, while the traveling public is increasingly demanding populist rules that would hamper the competitive advantage that the low-cost carriers currently have, which will raise prices there for only minor improvements in service quality. Car travel will always be dependent on oil prices, not to mention that business travelers increasingly want (read: are required to) to be able to use their phones and/or laptops while driving. In short, Amtrak might not lose passengers as the economy improves due to the other modes facing long-term problems. The conclusion I'd draw is that Amtrak is going to see growth, but the increasing profitability of some of the IC routes might lead to critics demanding more widespread profits throughout the system and a resumed focus on profitability as a prerequisite for rail service.
I wonder how Amtrak (and all intercity travel) will fair if the "new normal" is an extended (multiyear) period of little or no growth and high unemployment.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Station Aficionado wrote:I wonder how Amtrak (and all intercity travel) will fair if the "new normal" is an extended (multiyear) period of little or no growth and high unemployment.
Mr. Afficiando, that is quite a point.

Likely such involves societal changes that will go far beyond any "Main Street discovery of (Coach) train travel' as an inexpensive "passably comfortable" (beats Greyhound and "drive straight through Marathons'), but for openers, if possible, review this material appearing in Today's Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 23438.html

Brief passage:

  • Americans show little sign of regaining the confidence that once made them world-champion shoppers, and that caution has retailers leery about the prospects for the economy in 2010. Several top store chains this week reported stronger results and lingering doubts. On Tuesday, Target Corp., Home Depot Inc. and Macy's Inc. joined a parade of consumer-focused companies in warning that sales gains will continue to be slow, especially in the year's first half.

    Consumers remain reluctant to open their wallets with unemployment stubbornly high and home prices falling and unlikely to turn up soon, executives and economists say. While business purchases and other indicators point to an improving economy, unemployment is now at 9.7% and expected to fall only gradually over the next two years.

    "The economy is not out of the woods yet," said Carol Tomé, chief financial officer of Home Depot, which Tuesday forecast a 2.5% rise in 2010 sales despite posting its first quarterly gain in sales at stores open at least a year in four years. "It's going to be flattish in the first half of this year as this economy continues coming out of the doldrums," she said.

    New evidence that shoppers' spirits—and spending—are depressed came Tuesday when the Conference Board said its consumer-confidence index fell to 46.0 in February, from 56.5 a month earlier, its lowest point in 10 months. Consumers' views of current economic conditions also fell, as did their expectations of where the economy is headed.
It would appear that there is not quite the profligate urge to spend...spend ...spend as was prevalent through the '90's and '00's. No longer is the home a piggy-bank making 10% of its market value available each year as some kind of ATM machine. This past Xmas I noted a "McMansionite' neighbor family loading up the Chevy Suburban, not just for the drive to O'Hare, but rather 'to Grandmother's house we go' near Phila (Exton). Any of their past trips, Holidays, Spring Break, Summer, had always been of the "fly and rent' varietal (he's working again but was "out' for a while).

But will such a societal change, if in fact there is one, of seeking 'the simple life' translate to the 'fly and rent" market segment making their way to CUS, and sitting down in their Coach seats for an experience that to a non-fan could only be considered an endurance contest (so is air travel, but that's a half-day "over and done")? Will same apply to the 'we always drive' segment?

It will be interesting to hear some views, as i have never had grounding in Sociology (other than 3hrs as a 'Liberal Studies' elective) to initiate an intelligent discussion of this topic that, incidentally, I think is quite "on-topic' around here.
  by Station Aficionado
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:
Station Aficionado wrote:I wonder how Amtrak (and all intercity travel) will fair if the "new normal" is an extended (multiyear) period of little or no growth and high unemployment.
Mr. Afficiando, that is quite a point.

Likely such involves societal changes that will go far beyond any "Main Street discovery of (Coach) train travel' as an inexpensive "passably comfortable" (beats Greyhound and "drive straight through Marathons'), but for openers, if possible, review this material appearing in Today's Wall Street Journal:

.....

It would appear that there is not quite the profligate urge to spend...spend ...spend as was prevalent through the '90's and '00's. No longer is the home a piggy-bank making 10% of its market value available each year as some kind of ATM machine. This past Xmas I noted a "McMansionite' neighbor family loading up the Chevy Suburban, not just for the drive to O'Hare, but rather 'to Grandmother's house we go' near Phila (Exton). Any of their past trips, Holidays, Spring Break, Summer, had always been of the "fly and rent' varietal (he's working again but was "out' for a while).

But will such a societal change, if in fact there is one, of seeking 'the simple life' translate to the 'fly and rent" market segment making their way to CUS, and sitting down in their Coach seats for an experience that to a non-fan could only be considered an endurance contest (so is air travel, but that's a half-day "over and done")? Will same apply to the 'we always drive' segment?

It will be interesting to hear some views, as i have never had grounding in Sociology (other than 3hrs as a 'Liberal Studies' elective) to initiate an intelligent discussion of this topic that, incidentally, I think is quite "on-topic' around here.
There are many parts to the story of what's happening with our economy, and it's not wholly clear to me how they will impact Amtrak. To narrow the focus a bit, a big part of our problem is that we (both as a country and individually) have lived beyond our means for a number of years. We've had discussion about the future of federal and state spending, and the possible ramifications for Amtrak. As Mr. Norman suggests, it may be useful to think about changes in personal behavior and spending.

Large numbers of people are trying to dig out from a mountain of debt and repair their personal balance sheets. At the same time, unemployment is incredibly high. While the "headline" number (i.e., those with no job, but actively seeking employment) is just under 10%, the broader measure of unemployment (which also includes those without jobs who have become discouraged and stopped looking for employment, and those working part-time who are seeking full-time work) is now over 17%. I see little indication that any of this will change anytime soon. Thus, I suspect for many, the new-found frugality may be here to stay (though the human animal can be quite irrational).

What does this portend for Amtrak? Here, I think we need to focus on the non-business traveler--ie, someone traveling for pleasure or medical treatment or some other reason not related to their employment. Many, I think, will be looking for cheaper alternatives. In the NEC, Amtrak coach fares, while down, are still relatively high (at least in comparison with bus services). I don't want to get into a discussion of the relative merits of train or bus (personally, I prefer avoiding the possibility of sitting for hours on the Jersey Turnpike). Looking at this on just a price basis, however, I suspect the "new normal" could be a small negative for coach travel on the regionals. More people will elect not to travel and, for those who do travel, more will be looking for the best deal. This may be offset by business travelers downgrading from Acela to the regionals (I wonder what the long-term "hit" to Acela from the downturn will be).

As for the non-NEC trains, I think you have to differentiate between sleeping car and coach travel. The sleepers tend (and I know this is an overgeneralization) to be populated by the well-heeled enjoying a land cruise. These folks are relatively more insulated from the slings and arrows of outrageous economic fortune, and I suspect there won't be much of an impact. At the least, I have seen no indication that there will be plenty of discounted sleeper space available on the western superliners this summer.

With regard to coach travel outside the NEC, Amtrak fares are often dirt cheap. Amtrak could be an appealing choice for many looking for less expensive travel options (and would be more willing to put up with the, shall we say, more unpleasant aspects that sometime accrue to Amtrak travel). Thus, as we have seen so far, the situation could be a boon to travel on Amtrak outside the NEC. One cautionary note is that many of the low coach fares are procured by generous support of state governments. With the states strained financially, some of that support may be cut back. I suspect this will play out various ways in different stays. While some states may cut back, others may rank passenger rail high on their priority list, and maintain their support.

Those, in any event are my unlearned thoughts. I'd be interested to hear other views.
  by MudLake
 
Station Aficionado wrote:
Batman2 wrote:
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Obviously the Recession has favorably affected off-Corridor ridership and no doubt propelled by the quite low Coach fares Amtrak offers. What remains to be seen is when the economy recovers, how many will become "never agains"?
I'd be more interested in the question of how much fares increase once the economy improves; demand will obviously increase as people begin traveling again, but I think the likelihood of people returning to air and car travel could (optimistically) stay low. For air travel the increasing consolidation over the past years, including the Delta-Northwest merger, brings us closer to a monopoly among the legacy carriers, while the traveling public is increasingly demanding populist rules that would hamper the competitive advantage that the low-cost carriers currently have, which will raise prices there for only minor improvements in service quality. Car travel will always be dependent on oil prices, not to mention that business travelers increasingly want (read: are required to) to be able to use their phones and/or laptops while driving. In short, Amtrak might not lose passengers as the economy improves due to the other modes facing long-term problems. The conclusion I'd draw is that Amtrak is going to see growth, but the increasing profitability of some of the IC routes might lead to critics demanding more widespread profits throughout the system and a resumed focus on profitability as a prerequisite for rail service.
I wonder how Amtrak (and all intercity travel) will fair if the "new normal" is an extended (multiyear) period of little or no growth and high unemployment.
My hunch is that it's not a good scenario for Amtrak. Like it or not, Amtrak really only exists because it's funded by the government(s). An extended economic stagnation is going to put more pressure on government budgets as tax revenue doesn't rebound in a substantial manner. This will likely impact states first as they can't print their own money (good thing, IMHO).

If you're Illinois and find the only way to remain solvent is to cut spending in a major way, do you say we aren't going to educate our children or do you eliminate subsidizing intercity/regional trains? The population as a whole is going to protect education first and vote for representatives that will carry that out.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
MudLake wrote:If you're Illinois and find the only way to remain solvent is to cut spending in a major way, do you say we aren't going to educate our children or do you eliminate subsidizing intercity/regional trains? The population as a whole is going to protect education first and vote for representatives that will carry that out.
Maybe, just maybe, a start around these parts:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 5&#p775475
  by MudLake
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:
MudLake wrote:If you're Illinois and find the only way to remain solvent is to cut spending in a major way, do you say we aren't going to educate our children or do you eliminate subsidizing intercity/regional trains? The population as a whole is going to protect education first and vote for representatives that will carry that out.
Maybe, just maybe, a start around these parts:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 5&#p775475
They'll need 350 more programs of $37 million each to equal $13 billion. Better late than never.
  by jstolberg
 
Vincent wrote:A couple of comments on the Cascades growth... The 19% increase in December 2009 (FY 2010) travel is partly due to the snowstorm that buried the PNW at Christmas time in 2008 (FY09) and halted virtually all holiday travel. Also, it appears that 2 new trainsets will be ordered for the corridor using ARRA funds. The trainsets, however, will be purchased by Warshington, not Orygone.
In a story from August 16, 2009:

"The bulk of the savings, $35 million, will be spent to buy trains for the Amtrak run between Portland and Eugene.

"Currently, Oregon is using trains owned by Washington state on the route. Now Washington wants them back for an expanded service between Portland and Vancouver, British Columbia."
http://special.registerguard.com/csp/cm ... /story.csp

Unfortunately, I haven't seen Oregon follow though on that story.
  by Vincent
 
Well the news just hit: Oregon buys 2 trainsets!
  by Batman2
 
MudLake wrote: My hunch is that it's not a good scenario for Amtrak. Like it or not, Amtrak really only exists because it's funded by the government(s). An extended economic stagnation is going to put more pressure on government budgets as tax revenue doesn't rebound in a substantial manner. This will likely impact states first as they can't print their own money (good thing, IMHO).

If you're Illinois and find the only way to remain solvent is to cut spending in a major way, do you say we aren't going to educate our children or do you eliminate subsidizing intercity/regional trains? The population as a whole is going to protect education first and vote for representatives that will carry that out.
While you, Gilbert, and several others are pointing to the possibility of a long-term recession lasting potentially 2 or more years, I'm looking at a middle ground/mildly optimistic view in which unemployment has already peaked and gets back to 7-8% by the end of the year. Either way, there could be benefits for Amtrak, especially for IC routes. People might choose to take the train instead of flying for medium-distance traveling (in the 400-600 mile range). Ridership on the CHI-STL line, NEC, and several other corridors has fared better than the airline travel between key cities in their respective corridors. If that continues, we could see the profit margins improve for Amtrak. For example, somewhere around here on this or a conveniently nearby thread, the Lincoln Service made an operating profit last year. Amtrak is also benefiting from good OTP thanks (in part) to lower freight traffic.
  by MudLake
 
Batman2 wrote:
MudLake wrote: My hunch is that it's not a good scenario for Amtrak. Like it or not, Amtrak really only exists because it's funded by the government(s). An extended economic stagnation is going to put more pressure on government budgets as tax revenue doesn't rebound in a substantial manner. This will likely impact states first as they can't print their own money (good thing, IMHO).

If you're Illinois and find the only way to remain solvent is to cut spending in a major way, do you say we aren't going to educate our children or do you eliminate subsidizing intercity/regional trains? The population as a whole is going to protect education first and vote for representatives that will carry that out.
While you, Gilbert, and several others are pointing to the possibility of a long-term recession lasting potentially 2 or more years, I'm looking at a middle ground/mildly optimistic view in which unemployment has already peaked and gets back to 7-8% by the end of the year. Either way, there could be benefits for Amtrak, especially for IC routes. People might choose to take the train instead of flying for medium-distance traveling (in the 400-600 mile range). Ridership on the CHI-STL line, NEC, and several other corridors has fared better than the airline travel between key cities in their respective corridors. If that continues, we could see the profit margins improve for Amtrak. For example, somewhere around here on this or a conveniently nearby thread, the Lincoln Service made an operating profit last year. Amtrak is also benefiting from good OTP thanks (in part) to lower freight traffic.
This isn't about how long the Great Recession lasts. It's about government solvency and that directly impacts Amtrak as it fundamentally exists via government support.
  by David Benton
 
I think we need to vclear up what "making an operating profit " means on Amtrak . In this case i assume it means , after adding in the state subsidy , the train covered its direct operating costs .
Quite different from a profit in the ordinary sense of the word .
not to say it is good to see trains covering their costs , but we are not talking about Amtrak becoming profitable overall in your wildest dreams .
  by FFolz
 
The economy and Amtrak's fortunes are always connected, but let me respectfully submit that government indebtedness is something of a red herring. Amtrak endured The Great Car Crunch during the late 1990's when the economy was chugging and the deficits were shrinking. Congress threw a giant chunk of change at a supercollider that was never completed and was besotted over maglev but never followed up on providing Amtrak the capital they had promised. On the other hand, the French National Debt is the stuff of legends, and they STILL built the TGV.

On the state level, for many states, investing in rail for passenger transport is the fiscally conservative choice, vis a vis costly highway widening, costly interchange projects, etc. Just ask anyone in NoVa after that Springfield Mixing Bowl fiasco, vs. how they feel about VRE. Or ask Mitt Romney, who tried to cancel the Greenbush project (which had gotten expensive due to selfish NIMBYs in Hingham... who, btw, are now getting their just deserts), then quickly backpedaled because $100mil in "improvements" had nothing on the cost of "doing something" about the Rte. 3 corridor. (CTPS created a beautiful congestion map that explained without words why Greenbush was going to happen come hell or high water. The NIMBYs never stood a chance.) Or ask NJ how they feel about tunneling into Manhattan. More road access to the island? As Ralph Wiggum might say, " That's un-possible".

Finally, circling back to Europe, HSR success led to the cutting of air travel subsidies. Airports are expensive to own and operate, but small towns keep trying so that people will come. The RR can be a much more economical portal.

The thing with passenger rail is that it is cheaper. It's also slower and the service is limited. To some people this makes it unattractive. But if you're looking to economize--and you're in an area where the system actually gets serious use--it's a very attractive choice.
  by FFolz
 
Central to my point, etc, look at what Oregon did with the ARRA money. Obviously they thought they could get more bang for their buck with rail improvements. And they're not in the NEC.
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