Amtrak Southwest Chief Discussion

I think BNSF is about to get the riot act read to them: Topeka Capital-Journal

Amtrak to highlight disrepair of BNSF tracks in western Kansas

HUTCHINSON — Government and railroad officials will take a special train ride this week along the deteriorating track that Amtrak’s Southwest Chief uses in western Kansas.

An Amtrak engine will pull BNSF Railway cars from Topeka to La Junta, Colo., on Thursday to highlight the condition of the tracks.

The Hutchinson News reports vice presidents for Amtrak and BNSF, Kansas transportation leaders and officials from cities along the route will be on board. Representatives from Colorado and New Mexico also have been invited.

I doubt the purpose of the train ride is aimed at BNSF since they are providing the cars. Look at who the invited guests are if you want to determine its purpose. BNSF is willing to maintain their mainline with dozens of freight trains a day, but they're not willing to maintain a spur line with zero freight trains a day.
What's a shame is if the local states find the money, the level of future service will be Class III (60 mph max) or less. Any funds they find now for the immediate maintenance is only temporary, maintenance requirements and funding will be reoccurring. Amtrak and BNSF will be expecting yearly funding commitments.
Moving the train to the BNSF mainline would mean no yearly commitments and funding for track maintenance. But there will be a one time expense to build platforms and stations along the new routing, items the prospective cities will probably finance with little to no funds from the states.

There is a feeling around the ABQ area that the Chief will get rerouted to the Transcon after the contract runs out,BNSF has quietly
announced there will be some trackwork to remove some of the remaining single track sections in NM,at Ft Sumner(4 miles) and
near Vaughn (Tejon to Carnero,5.5 miles)the only single track section after that will be from Vaughn to Tejon(3 miles) where
the Transcon crosses the UP(ex RI/SP) route to El Paso(Branch of UP's Southern Transcon to LA) on a high fill.

In NMRX's short term plans is the rebuilding of the passing sidings at Chloe and Los Lunas to allow Amtrak a clean shot to ABQ.

Backshophoss wrote:There is a feeling around the ABQ area that the Chief will get rerouted to the Transcon after the contract runs out,BNSF has quietly
announced there will be some trackwork to remove some of the remaining single track sections in NM,at Ft Sumner(4 miles) and
near Vaughn (Tejon to Carnero,5.5 miles)the only single track section after that will be from Vaughn to Tejon(3 miles) where
the Transcon crosses the UP(ex RI/SP) route to El Paso(Branch of UP's Southern Transcon to LA) on a high fill.

In NMRX's short term plans is the rebuilding of the passing sidings at Chloe and Los Lunas to allow Amtrak a clean shot to ABQ.

So, New Mexico is already planning for and accepting the eventual realignment.

The state is "Split" on this,the tourism dept and the northern NM transit advocates are unhappy,the current office holders in
the top floor of the "Roundhouse"(aka the State Capital bldg) could care less, NMRX has had the passing sidings rebuild
already in their short term planning to make it easier to run the Belen-ABQ freight shuttles(to make UPS happy)

The 60 day session of the state legislature starts on the 15th,after the state budget gets figured out, the Chief
might be discussed along with other issues.

So this is why Amtrak is making noise on their facebook account about spending $30m/year in Kansas on goods and services... Trying to prove they add to the Kansas economy.

I am the most pro-passenger train fiscal conservative you will ever meet and I am an adopted Kansas by virtue of my law degree from KU. I love Kansas and want to see it get the best. But this business of keeping the old Raton route open for one train/day is just nuts.

Kansas would gain Wichita on the reroute between Newton and Mulvane Ks to the Transcon,then head west.

I have to agree with Tadman, it is silly to use the Raton route with no freight. Shame BNSF doesn't have a friendly connection over Tennessee Pass, or we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Barring that though, Kansas and Colorado should try to save service on the cross-Kansas line. I think there would be a market for a KCY - PUB - DEN train, either as a section of the Chief or as a standalone train. Perhaps people wouldn't be lining up to ride the entire distance, but PUB - DEN and TOP - KCY are (potentially) strong route pairs and there is steady traffic to and from the smaller Kansas towns. It doesn't help New Mexico, but it does make for a shorter Thruway connection when the axe does fall, and it creates a second daily Denver train to the east. The other plus is that with service from Denver to Pueblo, that gains a foot in the door on the busiest stretch of the Joint Line.

Ironic: we talk about dedicated tracks for passenger trains on say, the Empire Corridor and other busy freight lines, but the flip side here is there's no freight to pay for the upkeep of ROW. All the talk of HSR and separation from freight bows to economic reality.

I've got to find an "irony" avatar.

Jeff Smith wrote:Ironic: we talk about dedicated tracks for passenger trains on say, the Empire Corridor and other busy freight lines, but the flip side here is there's no freight to pay for the upkeep of ROW. All the talk of HSR and separation from freight bows to economic reality.

I've got to find an "irony" avatar.

If there were dozens of passenger trains using that corridor, passenger trains alone could pay to maintain the tracks. Two passenger trains a day isn't enough, just like two short freight trains a day wouldn't. NMDOT operates a dozen or so commuter trains a day between Santa Fe and Albuquerque, a sufficient amount of traffic to pay its keep.

In just about every case where dedicated HSR train corridors are proposed, you're going to see a dozen trains a day, if not more. So, it isn't as ironic as you suggest.

Take note, where there aren't dozens of HSR trains a day along a corridor, almost all the proposals are for "Higher" speed trains sharing tracks with freight trains, and the resulting slower max speeds. That's the major difference between out of the sky schemes from dreamers and those being practical.

Additionally, taking this discussion slightly deeper, the same truth (number of trains) shines brightly with state subsidized corridor trains. I'm only aware of one service operating today with just two trains per day, and its costs are being subsidized by two states - the Heartland Flyer. Every other state subsidize Amtrak corridor trains have at least four trains a day, often more. Take Iowa and Indiana upcoming or recent decisions - just two trains a day makes them very difficult to subsidize. Yet, there isn't enough projected ridership to run more daily trains. It's a far easier decision to make to support if there were more ridership to support more trains.

electricron wrote:Additionally, taking this discussion slightly deeper, the same truth (number of trains) shines brightly with state subsidized corridor trains. I'm only aware of one service operating today with just two trains per day, and its costs are being subsidized by two states - the Heartland Flyer. Every other state subsidize Amtrak corridor trains have at least four trains a day, often more. Take Iowa and Indiana upcoming or recent decisions - just two trains a day makes them very difficult to subsidize. Yet, there isn't enough projected ridership to run more daily trains. It's a far easier decision to make to support if there were more ridership to support more trains.

I agree with Ron's general point here. While it's true that the HF is the only corridor service with one frequency over it's entire length, there some other corridors where a good chunk of the route sees only one frequency: Pere Marquette (north of Porter); Blue Water (east of Battle Creek); Pennsylvanian (west of Harrisburg); Vermonter (north of Springfield) and Ethan Allen (east/north of Ft. Edward). These routes face the same circumstances as the HF.

I see a whole lot of upside for this reroute more than counterbalancing the downside. A lot of Santa Fe passenger trains DID use this "new" route prior to the formation of Amtrak including the San Francisco Chief. We're talking about a new route that appears to be shorter than via Trinidad and Raton, is double-tracked with CTC all the way. That means the train could operate at 79 MPH over most of that distance. Also, as much as I like the wig wag signals and old semaphores on the Northern Transcon route, the idea of getting Amarillo back on the passenger rail map is appealing. It's a town of about 200,000 meaning it has more population than all the current stops between Newton and Albuquerque combined. The potential loss of direct service right into Albuquerque does give me pause but maybe there's a solution there like building a connection to the depot from East of the city. I've seen other "solutions" discussed like possible backup moves to the station which would add a whole lot more time and expense to the trip. What about extending a Rail Runner train to Belen to connect with the SWC??

Also, I did some checking and the distance from Wellington, Kansas on the new route is just 135 Miles from Oklahoma City. At that point, what kind of investment are we looking at to close the rail gap there and restore either some kind of through service all the way from Chicago to Fort Worth or for a connection of a section of the SWC to connect to the Heartland Flyer at Oklahoma City???

BNSF will never allow a passenger train to stop at Belen,the former passenger depot has been converted into office space for
M of E crews,and right next to the WB fuel racks,as long as BNSF sets up a thru route(reported as #6 track)to get to Belen Jct,
NMRX will be ready to get the Chief a straight shot to Abajo wye for the 2 mile reverse move into ABQ platform.
The reverse move is within "Restricted {Yard} Limits" at ABQ ,both the east and west bound trains would have to wye
betore getting to the platform. The BNSF "idea" was to build a new station/siding at Dalies(Jct with the passenger cutoff to ABQ).
ABQ doesn't want to repeat what happened to Phoenix Az and the Sunset Ltd.(forced reroute to Maricopa)
BNSF has finally built the "wye" connector track to allow El Paso bound trains to bypass Belen yard,the "trick" is not to
get "congested" with trains getting serviced at Belen(crew change,fuel, and 500 mile air brake inspection point).

Believe NMRX would be willing to run connecting service,as long as Amtrak pays part of costs and
(if it)sets up interline ticketing with NMRX.

Backshophoss wrote:BNSF will never allow a passenger train to stop at Belen,the former passenger depot has been converted into office space for
M of E crews,and right next to the WB fuel racks,as long as BNSF sets up a thru route(reported as #6 track)to get to Belen Jct,
NMRX will be ready to get the Chief a straight shot to Abajo wye for the 2 mile reverse move into ABQ platform.
The reverse move is within "Restricted {Yard} Limits" at ABQ ,both the east and west bound trains would have to wye
betore getting to the platform. The BNSF "idea" was to build a new station/siding at Dalies(Jct with the passenger cutoff to ABQ).
ABQ doesn't want to repeat what happened to Phoenix Az and the Sunset Ltd.(forced reroute to Maricopa)
BNSF has finally built the "wye" connector track to allow El Paso bound trains to bypass Belen yard,the "trick" is not to
get "congested" with trains getting serviced at Belen(crew change,fuel, and 500 mile air brake inspection point).

Believe NMRX would be willing to run connecting service,as long as Amtrak pays part of costs and
(if it)sets up interline ticketing with NMRX.

The good news often overlooked is that the railroad between Santa Fe and Belen is owned by NMDOT, not by the BNSF. NM wants to keep the Southwest Chief service into ABQ, where Amtrak is serviced with a prolonged stay. There's plenty of time available to turn the train at the wye, if not just the locomotives. NMDOT is also capable of providing transfers to not only Santa Fe, but to all the stations between Belen and Santa Fe.
The remaining railroad corridor into Phoenix is still owned by the UP. There's no organization providing passenger trains on that remaining spur. Arizona didn't want to. It's an entirely different set of circumstances from what we see in New Mexico.

With respect to a SWC to Heartland Flyer connection, I did a little checking and found that the (SB) Heartland Flyer's schedule roughly mirrors the June 1969 schedule of the (southbound) Texas Chief with a morning departure from OKC and an early afternoon arrival in Fort Worth. Currently, the (WB) Southwest Chief calls on Newton at 2:45 AM, nearly a full 2 hours ahead of the scheduled 4:40 AM departure of the Texas Chief. That means a section of cars cut away from the Southwest Chief at Newton (or Wichita or even Kansas City) should easily be able to make it to Oklahoma City well in time to either connect with the Heartland Flyer or runs as a through train all the way to Fort Worth or even San Antonio and/or Houston. It took the Texas Chief 4 hours to cover the 200 miles between Newton and Oklahoma City each way. If the Northbound Heartland Flyer's schedule today remained untouched with an extension to Newton, the Northbound train would leave Oklahoma City roughly about 10 PM and get into Newton about 2 AM, roughly about an hour before the Southwest Chief's scheduled time.

At that point, it seems like the question then becomes about what is needed to open the 135 miles up between Wellington and Oklahoma City to passenger service again.

Seems like the upside to the reroute could not only be the addition of Amarillo (not to mention direct service to Wichita) to the Amtrak system but also the restoration of another through route between Chicago and Fort Worth via Kansas City, Wichita, and Oklahoma City to go along with the Texas Eagle route via St. Louis, Little Rock, and Dallas.

Incidentally, I did a little checking and it took the San Francisco Chief roughly 12.5 hours to cover the distance from to Newton to Belen via Amarillo. The scheduled time right now between Newton and Albuquerque is 14:10. So there does appear to be some time savings involved. If the April 1965 San Francisco Chief schedule is any indication at all, given the current 2:45 AM departure from Newton, the rerouted (WB) Southwest Chief could be expected to call on Amarillo roughly around 10:30 AM. The Eastbound train would make the Amarillo stop around roughly 7:20 PM. In other words, right in prime travel hours for a city of 200,000 people.