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Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

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Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618748  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Really volks, isn't it time to accept that, even if a magnificently engineered piece of railroad right of way, The Cutoff really goes "nowhere to nowhere". If NJT somehow foresees communities in Western Sussex or Warren, such as Blairstown located in the latter named county, and they have the "copper in the hopper" (and the political pull to get a Fed share for such), fine. Go for it!

But for the project to relaying the twenty miles Andover-Slateford, Amtrak has better places to put its, albeit enhanced under Joe's IIJA Act, still scarce appropriations, than into a "somewhere to nowhere" project NY-Scranton.

Not by my doing (I rode Miss Phoebe to there during '60 - and observing the Cutoff from her Obs was an experience still in my memory bank), but Scranton is "Ein Tote Stadt". I think that much more than "three a day" - or even twelve - operating at highway competitive speeds will hardly be enough to turn the fate of the Wyoming Valley.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618771  by JoeG
 
Well, Jeff, whoever wrote the press release you posted must have been smoking some of the good stuff.
First, this could be done in 5 years, by 2028? Right now the NJT extension of service to Andover via the cutoff is at least a couple of years away.

Two hours 50 minutes to Scranton? The Phoebe Snow did it in 3 hours 15 minutes. That included a time of 58 minutes, Hoboken to Dover. NJT has no trains that make it to Dover in anywhere near that time. Given the congestion on the M&E, and given the way the M&E is run by NJT, no way to come close to Phoebe's time these days. (I'm ignoring any time differences between starting from Hoboken and NJT; my basic points are still true.)
Finally, how is the train going to stop at both Morristown and Montclair? Is Amtrak proposing a new railroad?
The hype surrounding NY-Scranton service will never be matched. by the slow reality.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618774  by CNJGeep
 
As for the Montclair vs. Morristown, some trains would go via the Boonton Line at Denville, and some would go via Morristown. They will stop at one or the other.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618780  by lensovet
 
Yeah please read the report before blasting it. As far as the schedule is concerned, they are already padding the schedule to Dover, as the fastest NJT train does the trip in 1 hour 13 minutes – with multiple stops, while the fastest service Amtrak is proposing is 1:46 with just two stops. However they do expect a MAS of 110 on the cut-off.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618781  by ExCon90
 
One absolute necessity on the eastbound moves is Swiss-quality on-time arrivals at Dover so as not to miss Amtrak's slot. I don't see NJT holding a local for a train from Scranton that's even 10 minutes late, any more than MN will wait for Amtrak at New Rochelle; and if they don't, the delay to the Scranton train, now "running on yellows" behind a local, would be at least 20 minutes. If that happens more than once a month or so the market for eastbound business travel will dry up, and the westbound market along with it. Of course similar delays can and do occur on I-80, but such things are routinely tolerated by motorists.

(There's a lot of parallel discussion at the NJT forum -- should that be moved over here?)

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618800  by R36 Combine Coach
 
JoeG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:33 pm Finally, how is the train going to stop at both Morristown and Montclair? Is Amtrak proposing a new railroad?
Reverse move at Baker over Morristown & Erie, after rebuilding the track east of I-280/B&G Foods, Roseland.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618869  by Jeff Smith
 
Route Description
The route between Scranton and New York is approximately 136 miles long (see Figure 1). This report does not include analysis of required infrastructure in New Jersey.

The track is entirely owned by public agencies including PNRRA, National Park Service Steamtown (NPS), NJ TRANSIT, and Amtrak. Within Pennsylvania, the route uses approximately 60 miles between Scranton and the Delaware Water Gap owned by PNRRA (NPS owns a short section in Scranton). At the Delaware Water Gap, the route proceeds for 20 miles to Andover, NJ, along the “Lackawanna Cut-Off,” a railroad right of way owned by PNRRA and the State of New Jersey which currently has no tracks. At Andover, the route connects to NJ TRANSIT’s mostly electrified Morris & Essex (M&E) lines to Newark and then connects to Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor (NEC) for eight miles to reach New York Penn Station.

Nine stations are served in the conceptual schedules: Scranton, Mount Pocono, East Stroudsburg,
Blairstown, Dover, Morristown, Montclair, Newark Broad Street, and New York Penn Station.
Morristown and Montclair are alternatively served with various trains. Future analysis could consider
other station stopping patterns.

The route has four distinct segments (from west to east):

1. Scranton – Delaware Water Gap: This 60-mile segment is mostly owned by PNRRA with
approximately a mile owned by NPS in Scranton. The infrastructure is presently Class 2 track
(25 mph maximum freight speed/30 mph maximum passenger speed) without signaling and
operated by the short-line railroad Delaware-Lackawanna (D-L), under contract with PNRRA.
Track would be upgraded to Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) track classes 3 and 4 to
increase speeds, and signals and a Positive Train Control (PTC) system would be installed.

2. Delaware Water Gap – Andover: This 20-mile segment is owned by PNRRA and the State of
New Jersey and currently has no track. New track is proposed to be constructed to FRA Class 4
or 6 (which allow maximum passenger train speeds of 80 or 110 mph respectively); this segment
has very long sections of tangent track that support higher speeds and could be constructed to
meet the 110 mph Class 6 track standard. Signals and a PTC system would be installed.

3. Andover – Swift: This 48-mile segment, known as the M&E Line, is owned and operated by NJ
TRANSIT and is a track Class 4 (80 mph passenger maximum speed; due to curvature, most
speeds are under 60 mph) with extensive commuter operations. Although no track, speed, and
capacity upgrades were evaluated in this study, targeted capacity improvements may benefit both
intercity passenger rail and commuter operations. The Andover – Port Morris segment is
currently under construction by NJ TRANSIT. Electrification exists for 35.5 miles between
Dover and Swift via the Morristown route.

4. Swift/Kearny Junction – New York Penn Station: This 8-mile electrified segment is owned and
operated by Amtrak. Amtrak and its partners are advancing plans to add additional train capacity
in this segment under the Gateway Program which adds new tracks, bridges, and tunnels
approaching New York City. No other track changes are contemplated in this segment.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618882  by NaugyRR
 
I mean, I would ride this train to do a weekend in Scranton. I despise having to drive to tractor school in New Holland (which, yes, I know is much further), but it is just such not a fun drive for me.

Being able to jump on an Empire Train in Rhinecliff with a connection in Moynihan would be pretty cool. I could drive to Boston in less time than the train, but I still do the same journey to connect with the Acela. Why? Because when I'm off from work I'd rather watch the scenery and enjoy a drink instead of wondering what the BMW with the Jersey plates in the left lane is going to do once his exit comes up.

I doubt I'm the only person who has those feelings.

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618902  by Steamguy73
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:23 pm Really volks, isn't it time to accept that, even if a magnificently engineered piece of railroad right of way, The Cutoff really goes "nowhere to nowhere". If NJT somehow foresees communities in Western Sussex or Warren, such as Blairstown located in the latter named county, and they have the "copper in the hopper" (and the political pull to get a Fed share for such), fine. Go for it!

But for the project to relaying the twenty miles Andover-Slateford, Amtrak has better places to put its, albeit enhanced under Joe's IIJA Act, still scarce appropriations, than into a "somewhere to nowhere" project NY-Scranton.

Not by my doing (I rode Miss Phoebe to there during '60 - and observing the Cutoff from her Obs was an experience still in my memory bank), but Scranton is "Ein Tote Stadt". I think that much more than "three a day" - or even twelve - operating at highway competitive speeds will hardly be enough to turn the fate of the Wyoming Valley.
Here's the thing. Of all of the proposals that have been listed in "connects us", the NYC to Scranton Service may be among the most desirable for reasons totally separate from Biden. This is because of the fact that the state of NJ, and PA, own basically the entire right of way. I'm not sure if there's any other project that involves a new service where this is true, outside of maybe a couple. Amtrak can do whatever they'd want without interruption from major freight railroads and the politics that brings.

It's not a particularly attractive service like among the ideas surrounding Atlanta, Florida, the Front Range or the Texas triangle, but it would be, in theory, a comparatively unchallenging service introduction.

Of the largest continental US cities/metro areas without intercity passenger rail service, the Wyoming Valley area of Pennsylvania is the 19th largest according to the wiki, with about 550,000 people. Not among the very largest, but sizeable enough. But also consider those that are ahead of it. Of those that are in generally Amtrak friendly states, you've realistically got maybe Tulsa, Allentown PA, Baton Rouge, and maybe Colorado Springs.

That's it. Of those 4, only Baton Rouge seems to be making serious steps to get service.

Of the other 14, there's Vegas, Three in Florida (Fort Myers, Sarasota, Space coast), Three in TN (Chattanooga, Nashville, Knoxville), McAllen TX, Dayton-Springfield and Columbus Ohio, Des Moines IA, and Augusta GA. Only 5 of those are actually on the Connects US map. So even if Scranton and the Wyoming Valley isn't exactly among the most attractive places to introduce Amtrak service, it's not exactly "nowhere".

Scranton service would add trains to one of the larger places without intercity passenger rail, works within two states that are among those most supportive of Amtrak, and would be among the least difficult when it comes to scheduling and political headaches that routinely plague service introductions elsewhere (ie Quad Cities, Dubuque, Gulf Coast, and probably almost any other proposal).

Re: Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

 #1618933  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Steamguy, you do raise a valid point in that the entire route is owned by one public agency or the other. Whatever apparently local freight is handled, it can be commanded to "get out of the way" just are the freight operations over the Corridor.

There simply will not be any "oh those darned freight railroads are just looking for any wrench they can throw in the way of our passenger train", much as has been the experience with the Mobile-NO service, and the Downeaster.

But despite whatever "boosting" our members here who have ties to the Wyoming Valley region, does this represent a "well spent" use of public funds? Where's the population growth? Will "three a day", or even twelve, suddenly return the Wyoming Valley to its once held position as a "thriving" region?

I personally doubt it, but this is a forum where all thoughts have equal weight.
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