Amtrak/LIRR Moynihan Train Hall

JoshKarpoff wrote: The reason for the rush project to build a tunnel box to preserve a right-of-way under the West Side Yards for any future Amtrak Gateway project before any commercial development for proceeds for the Hudson Yards project. This is because the level of cost and difficulty increases exponentially for any future Amtrak projects if this is done AFTER all the footings, pilings and foundations for the Hudson Yards towers are put in.

It will actually be impossible to build any future Amtrak alignment once the platform overbuild is complete, hence the urgency.

JoshKarpoff wrote:
Thus, we start getting to the point of "fixing" Penn Station.
MSG is the elephant that is perched upon and slowly breaking the back of the Penn Station tortoise.
As long as MSG sits atop Penn Station, it will be significantly harder and more costly to renovate any of the vital track level structural elements. As long as there are giant columns and beams to carry all of that extra weight, that architects and engineers then have to work around in their plans, the costs will be significantly higher. You cannot cheaply fix platform level passenger flow issues without eliminating the columns that carry the weight of MSG. As long as all of the station level infrastructure has to be squeezed between the underside of MSG and the top side of the track level, it will resemble a rabbit warren.

This is an excellent point. Even though the platforms at Penn. are original, there are a lot more columns on them supporting the weight of the various structures above (mainly MSG). The original station had columns on the platform that simply supported the concourse above, and the glass shed. But the addition of columns (some massive) has created some extremely narrow platform sections, not to mention, hampers traffic flow.

I'm also surprised the discussion to rebuild Penn Station always involves the demo of MSG. Yet, there's the Penn Plaza building on 7th Ave that could be demolished and open up a new segment of space over the station. Plus the structures below the Garden, like the old Felt Forum, and various exhibition spaces that sit above the Amtrak main concourse (not sure what they're used for now).

Getting rid of Penn Plaza and the structures below the Garden (Felt Forum, et.al.,) still leaves you with the Garden's support columns, you don't really gain that much.....

I wouldn't usually quote Wikipedia but in this case it works, and I know it to be accurate: "Opened on February 11, 1968, [Madison Square Garden] is now the oldest active major sporting facility in the New York metropolitan area. It is the oldest arena in the National Hockey League and the second-oldest arena in the National Basketball Association." Yes, the Dolans just poured a bucket of money into renovations. However, just like the mid-1970's Yankee Stadium renovations, they can't really change the fact that the place is outmoded-- and I'm speaking as a Rangers fan who has attended plenty of games there, most recently in April of this year.

My guess is that in 10 years, MSG will have relocated to a new building for the 5th time in its history-- likely a shiny new arena to be constructed as part of the 12.7 million square feet of new retail, office & residential space going up in the Hudson Yards development on top of the West Side Yards. If nothing else, the competitive pressure from the Barclay's Center (which just passed MSG as the top-grossing concert venue in the US, according to Billboard magazine) would be pushing them, regardless of the City lease.

I wouldn't look for Penn Plaza to be demolished, though. That office space is too valuable. If anything, I'd expect to see another Penn Plaza-sized office building go up on the site. However, whatever they put up, I think you've got a lot of major Manhattan players, both political and real estate, that want to make sure that the station itself stands up to comparison to the best European stations.

I agree with most everything you say. I'm not so sure about the remaining value of Penn Plaza though, not with the all the new office space going up in Hudson Yards and Manhattan West.

Ridgefielder wrote:However, whatever they put up, I think you've got a lot of major Manhattan players, both political and real estate, that want to make sure that the station itself stands up to comparison to the best European stations.

As well they should. The current configuration belongs to an era where the conventional wisdom held rail to be outmoded, obsolete and on the way out. Now the irony is to see the former "wisdom" to be what's out of style.

Don31 wrote:I agree with most everything you say. I'm not so sure about the remaining value of Penn Plaza though, not with the all the new office space going up in Hudson Yards and Manhattan West.

There's still going to be a lot of value in having a building that is physically linked to a huge commuter hub, no matter how much other office space goes up nearby. I think Penn Plaza is in fact the *only* office building with a direct indoor connection to Penn (unlike GCT which, by my count is connected to at least five major buildings-- PanAm, Graybar, 347 Madison, 335 Madison, 51 E42nd-- from the Concourse level alone, and probably another dozen through Grand Central North and the Subway station: proof once again that the Vanderbilts were better real estate developers than Mr. Cassatt and the Pennsy )

gokeefe wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:However, whatever they put up, I think you've got a lot of major Manhattan players, both political and real estate, that want to make sure that the station itself stands up to comparison to the best European stations.

As well they should. The current configuration belongs to an era where the conventional wisdom held rail to be outmoded, obsolete and on the way out. Now the irony is to see the former "wisdom" to be what's out of style.

It's very ironic, and if it wasn't costing New York so much money to fix the bad decisions of the 1950's & 60's, I'd find laugh.

Ridgefielder wrote:

Don31 wrote:I agree with most everything you say. I'm not so sure about the remaining value of Penn Plaza though, not with the all the new office space going up in Hudson Yards and Manhattan West.

There's still going to be a lot of value in having a building that is physically linked to a huge commuter hub, no matter how much other office space goes up nearby.

I strongly concur. Manhattan is one of the most competitive markets in the world and Penn station is one of the city's major hubs for regional and intercity travel.

Ridgefielder wrote:

gokeefe wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:However, whatever they put up, I think you've got a lot of major Manhattan players, both political and real estate, that want to make sure that the station itself stands up to comparison to the best European stations.

As well they should. The current configuration belongs to an era where the conventional wisdom held rail to be outmoded, obsolete and on the way out. Now the irony is to see the former "wisdom" to be what's out of style.

It's very ironic, and if it wasn't costing New York so much money to fix the bad decisions of the 1950's & 60's, I'd find laugh.

The consolation prize here is that given the circumstances of those times almost no one could have anticipated the nearly miraculous effect that deregulation and government reorganization would have on the eastern railroads. The bad decisions of the 50's and 60's were made against the abyss of byzantine regulation by the ICC that gave the appearance of dooming the railroads to irrelevance in both freight and passenger operations. This backdrop combined with the construction of the nation's interstate highway system, and the onset of the jet age all during a period of nearly unprecedented economic growth and historic low energy prices made the dingy halls of "Old Penn" an anachronism that people wanted to bury.

Passenger rail has since recovered its rightful place in some ways but now lacks the necessary infrastructure to properly support its continued growth. As we have seen in Maine you can't fix 40 or more years of under investment and stagnation in a single sweep. New York, and Penn Station in particular is in some ways even worse off due to the pre WWI vintage construction of the underground structures and almost a century of under investment in track capacity for intercity service.

Although the solutions may be expensive this represents an opportunity with a very high rate of return on investment for the next century. I think its good to look forward to the next 100 years of passenger rail in the U.S. knowing that they will almost certainly be better than the last 100.

With the stairs on the platform between 11 and 12 progressing rather nicely now (lots of steel in place) does anybody know the status of work inside the post office? My real question though is how will these stairs be opened to the public? Will they be built one at a time only to be kept under wraps waiting for a single grand opening or will they be connected to the LIRR West End Concourse and opened to the public as they are completed from north to south?

andegold wrote:With the stairs on the platform between 11 and 12 progressing rather nicely now (lots of steel in place) does anybody know the status of work inside the post office? My real question though is how will these stairs be opened to the public? Will they be built one at a time only to be kept under wraps waiting for a single grand opening or will they be connected to the LIRR West End Concourse and opened to the public as they are completed from north to south?

I don't know if this is a complete answer but a Wall Street Journal article published on Sunday has some further detail.

New York state officials are pushing ahead with a plan that could generate hundreds of millions of dollars toward funding a long-sought but elusive plan to expand Pennsylvania Station into the 1912 Farley post office building across Eighth Avenue. Empire State Development Corp., the state economic-development agency, is looking for a broker to sell 1.5 million square feet of unused real-estate-development rights attached to the property on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd streets, according to a request for proposals posted on its website last month.
...
But the move toward the sale is one of the first signs that the Cuomo administration is interested in remaking the interior of the post office into a grand waiting room for Amtrak—a project about which administration officials have said little publicly. The postal service no longer uses much of the space in the Farley building, which the state purchased in 2007. The Corinthian column-lined building was designed by McKim, Mead & White, also the architects of the original Penn Station. Using the Farley building as a train station has been a dream of planners and state officials for more than two decades. Its intent is both to evoke the original Penn Station that was demolished in 1963 and to spur nearby real-estate development, although it would do little to expand train capacity.
...
In 2010, the state was able to get a smaller, initial phase off the ground when it approved $267 million for the project, which includes infrastructure work and two new entrances to rail platforms, and is scheduled to be completed in 2016. But much of that work is underground and has little visible impact on riders' experience. The signature element of the project, the hall for Amtrak, needs additional funding. While more than $350 million has previously been committed, significantly more is needed—likely an additional hundreds of millions of dollars. Under the new plan, the state would use revenue from the sales to pay down debt on the property and help pay for transforming "the Old Sorting Hall within the Farley Building into the new, sky-lit train hall comparable in size" to Grand Central Terminal, the document says.

Looks as if things are finally going to move forward at a faster pace.

Here is an article from ny.curbed.com, a real estate development blog, with a much more straight forward description of the intended transaction.

Farley Post Office's long-talked-about conversion into Moynihan Station seems like a pipe dream, but now state officials are talking about one concrete way to raise funds. The plan seems pretty simple and it goes like this: 1) find a buyer for the post office's 1.5 million square feet of air rights; 2) use the money to expand Penn Station into the post office. The Wall Street Journal reports that the Empire State Development Corporation issued an RFP last month for the post office's unused real estate development rights, which could likely be transferred within a few blocks from the post office's location on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd streets, but what's murky is "how fast the state intends to proceed with the selection of a broker and marketing of development rights, nor is it clear if developers would be willing to pay a price that satisfies state officials or that would fully fund the project." Which would be hundreds of millions of dollars.

For whatever reason I never understood from the Wall Street Journal article that the sale involved air rights that would then be transferred elsewhere for development.

Waste of money, plus it's farther from 7th ave subway.

It's a great idea and it's not too far from the 7th ave subway, it's completely doable. Hope it happens!

Real Estate Weekly, a New York property news weekly, has a nice article describing in relatively simple terms the ongoing Phase I work at the Farley Post Office Building and future Moynihan Station.

The transformation of the Farley Post Office into the Moynihan Station is as well-known as the overcrowding at Penn Station. However, few people know about the actual work that is being performed and how that work and the creation of the Moynihan Station will improve transportation for the passengers that travel through Penn Station every day.When Penn Station was re-built in the early 1960s, it was designed to handle up to between 200,000 and 300,000 people daily. Today it is serving twice that amount. The station lacks the vertical circulation, the number of entrances and exits and the amount of concourse space to address the growth we have seen in rail transportation in the last fifty years. Moynihan Station is designed to address the overcrowding that the passengers experience daily at Penn and aid economic growth in the future. Phase 1 of Moynihan Station is under construction and is scheduled for completion in 2016. Phase 1 will double the length and width of the western concourse to 450 feet by 40 feet, provide two new entrances through the historic Farley Building into Penn Station, include seven new elevators down to the train platforms and improve and make ADA accessible the connection under Eighth Avenue to Penn Station. This will significantly improve access for Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and Amtrak passengers heading to or from points west of Eighth Avenue and the Eighth Avenue subway lines.

Noticed progress at the 31st and 33rd Street corners of the Farley Building this past weekend, which included that construction has substantially opened the corners of the building and were reworking it as a "main" entrance.

One part you can use is the newly-opened 8th Ave Subway ( A C E ) exit stairs @33rd shown on the right of the rendering here (I was unwilling to stand in the middle of 8th Ave for a photo of current conditions from a similar angle, sorry):

From using the subway exit, it appeared very freshly opened (and mostly raw concrete/cinder block surfaces waiting for their finish materials, and everything around it was still on the "work" side of the construction fences). I didn't have time to actually probe any Penn Station interior spaces. Anyone else have progress to report?