Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

This electronics issue probably is not solvable. By the time all the bugs are worked out the parts are obsolete and no long built. So we have HHPs parked waiting for parts that are no longer available. German RR DB has stopped deliveries of their latest train sets due to software problems. Maybe it is time for any RR to quit allowing electronics that shut down locos or other train control software. 40 years who knows what will be the latest and greatest thing. Actually latest and worse thing.

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/db-su ... -delivery/

east point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:36 pm This electronics issue probably is not solvable. By the time all the bugs are worked out the parts are obsolete and no long built. So we have HHPs parked waiting for parts that are no longer available. German RR DB has stopped deliveries of their latest train sets due to software problems. Maybe it is time for any RR to quit allowing electronics that shut down locos or other train control software. 40 years who knows what will be the latest and greatest thing. Actually latest and worse thing.

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/db-su ... -delivery/

Usually software issues can be solved just by fixing all the bugs. It should not require many hardware changes.
But EU train operators should not be surprised by Bombardier caused delays in production, what had happen in North America was surely going to happen in Europe eventually.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:07 pm But EU train operators should not be surprised by Bombardier caused delays in production, what had happen in North America was surely going to happen in Europe eventually.

At the rate things are going, Bombardier might not exist in a few years. They sold basically all their aviation stuff, and their rail division is being eyed by a few firms,and they have huge debt and no money. Even Quebec's government is getting tired of bailing them out. Their 'hail mary' pass, the C Series was basically given to Airbus for $1.

HHPs have one computer in them that still has a 386 processor. if you know what that is, you know its reallllly old. So i can see why stuff is hard to find.

ok HHP-8 is not Amtrak anymore, will they run elsewhere ?? not likely.
Europe has max axle load of 12.5 ton , most of rest of world same or less.
why is this still in Amtrak forum ?

Still thinking MARC or another one of the NEC commuter agencies is going to pick these units up on the cheap and have them rebuilt. MBTA apparently took a pass (quite understandably) on the AEM-7s. Should be interesting to see if they try for the HHP-8s.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:56 pm HHPs have one computer in them that still has a 386 processor. if you know what that is, you know its reallllly old. So i can see why stuff is hard to find.

Still stocked at Digi-key. IIRC, the Airbus A3230 still uses even older processors. That's not a bug, it's a feature - most of the bad habits have been found and corrected.

It's a locomotive, not the gaming PC of some kid in his parent's basement. We don't need to render 50,000,000 polygons a second...

386 processor ? That probably means a newer processor will not even fit into the plug ? It just seems that no RR equipment should be dependent on a computer to run. Computer yes can annunciate but not shut down any motive power.

east point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:35 pm 386 processor ? That probably means a newer processor will not even fit into the plug ? It just seems that no RR equipment should be dependent on a computer to run. Computer yes can annunciate but not shut down any motive power.

The firing of the semiconductors in the inverters is entirely computer driven. It's old tech in the industrial world.

Diesels, the injector timing is all computer driven, too.

There are two options:
1) Amtrak gets some of whatever MARC is having from Alstom, rebuilds the units, and takes a huge loss when they have to give them back to PMCC. PMCC then gets a windfall when they sell them, either to MARC or to a scrapper.
2) Amtrak negotiates with PMCC to pay *some* penalty, the units get returned to lessor one place and scrapped where they sit. Maybe MARC picks some of them up for pennies and does something with them.

No one wins in scenario 1.

Nasadowsk wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:04 pm

east point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:35 pm 386 processor ? That probably means a newer processor will not even fit into the plug ? It just seems that no RR equipment should be dependent on a computer to run. Computer yes can annunciate but not shut down any motive power.

The firing of the semiconductors in the inverters is entirely computer driven. It's old tech in the industrial world.

Diesels, the injector timing is all computer driven, too.

Teh 386 based machine has nothing to do with the semiconductor firing, its just the CMU which is the car monitoring unit and its proprietary to the situation of central monitoring to the entire locomotives subsystems and computers. Vapor corp who made it wants nothing to do with it anymore. in fact its part of wabtec now they make door control systems

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:20 pm Still thinking MARC or another one of the NEC commuter agencies is going to pick these units up on the cheap and have them rebuilt. MBTA apparently took a pass (quite understandably) on the AEM-7s. Should be interesting to see if they try for the HHP-8s.

MBTA didnt take a pass on anything. They havent looked at anything. And again, even if they did a locomotive with an absolutely poor record in snow weather performance (it doesnt work) would be an extremely poor choice by a state that often sees serious snowfall.

The only logical place for these to end up IF anybody wants to bother with them is MARC, since they already run them and already have a partner whos working on some of the subsystems. As far as all of the units ending up functional on marc, is impossible. When the locos were running at any one time you would never have all 15 in service because at least one that was out of service would be stripped of critical computers/modules etc to keep the others running. Now that they are out, and HSTs have seen their problems creeping along it seems to be the HHP8s have provided to keep the HST fleet moving.

Id also like to remind that the HHP-8 is not "done" on amtrak. While they were pulled from service and do not operate, they are still officially on the books and at any time could be put back in service, if they actually worked.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:20 pm Still thinking MARC or another one of the NEC commuter agencies is going to pick these units up on the cheap and have them rebuilt. MBTA apparently took a pass (quite understandably) on the AEM-7s. Should be interesting to see if they try for the HHP-8s.

MARC is currently the only one that runs the HHP-8's, and is going through the rehab process.

Assuming the Amtrak HHP-8's legal situation gets resolved and Amtrak can get rid of them... not likely. Remember, MARC has to run on non-electrified lines as well, so 6 HHP-8's for NEC-only service is probably the max they're run. It's cheaper in the long run to swap old MARC engines for new Chargers.

That said, the only way they're going to get any value as running engines is if they go through the rehab process. Otherwise, they're just sitting scrap.

only reason they will not go anywhere is due to check mate status.
Bombardier will not let Amtrak off hook for lease payments till certain date.
So Amtrak will not release them back to Bombardier till that same date.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:32 pm

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:20 pm Still thinking MARC or another one of the NEC commuter agencies is going to pick these units up on the cheap and have them rebuilt. MBTA apparently took a pass (quite understandably) on the AEM-7s. Should be interesting to see if they try for the HHP-8s.

MARC is currently the only one that runs the HHP-8's, and is going through the rehab process.

Assuming the Amtrak HHP-8's legal situation gets resolved and Amtrak can get rid of them... not likely. Remember, MARC has to run on non-electrified lines as well, so 6 HHP-8's for NEC-only service is probably the max they're run. It's cheaper in the long run to swap old MARC engines for new Chargers.

That said, the only way they're going to get any value as running engines is if they go through the rehab process. Otherwise, they're just sitting scrap.

In the long run , one would hope MARC and others would move to electrify more branches, to improve service and reduce carbon emissions. Hopefully the political climate in the USA will change to prioritize (and pay for) such urgent action required. ( call me a doomsdayer if you like , as I head out to try and find anything green for my cows to eat for the 3rd successive drought in a row, in temperatures 5 degrees above (the old )normal.