• Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by DutchRailnut
 
USRailFan wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:both E60 and HHP8 were units bought but not pre tested, the ACS64 despite being Americanized is a basic European locomotive with other 2000 in service.
Weren't the E60s already used on a couple of electrified industrial lines at this point?
even if they did, guess they did not test at high enough speeds.
  by electricron
 
USRailFan wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:both E60 and HHP8 were units bought but not pre tested, the ACS64 despite being Americanized is a basic European locomotive with other 2000 in service.
Weren't the E60s already used on a couple of electrified industrial lines at this point?
Yes, at least two were used at the Winfield lignite mine and Monticelo power plant near Mt. Pleasant Texas. The Winfield mine is in the process of shutting down, so these E60s will either be sold or scrapped soon.
Sorry, on further study, these are E25B locomotives and not E60s. :(
  by Matt Johnson
 
dowlingm wrote:hey, if they are gonna hang around Amtrak property after the lease is over like an unemployed college graduate who decides to live in their parents' basement, surely the lessor better be contributing to the rent?
Hey, I resemble that remark! :)

A couple of the actual E60s ended up in mine train duty in Farmington, New Mexico. Not sure what ever became of them.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
There were 3 different E60 manufacturing batches spread across 2 generations, 4 different total makes/configurations, and 4 different original buyers.

-- Black Mesa & Lake Powell RR's (the Navajo Mine ones) ordered 6 E60C's, built '72-76. Single cab and single pantograph only.
-- Amtrak ordered 7 E60CP's (steam generator) and 19 E60CH's (regular HEP), built '74-76. Double-ended cabs, 2 pantographs.
-- NdeM ordered 39 and Deseret Power RR ordered 2 E60C-2's built '82-83. Double-ended cabs, 2 pantographs.

The BMLP and Amtrak orders overlapping is probably where the testing deficit bit Amtrak in the butt on reliability. BMLP spread a much smaller freight order out over more years to get its warranty mods right on the single-cab version, whereas Amtrak blitzed the full order of their double-cab passenger version before BMLP had fully digested its pilot units. Big and necessary lesson learned here by AMTK for future procurements about allowing enough time for testing cycles.


The E60C-2's are the only make that's still a going concern. Most never saw much service on NdeM because that electric line was never fully completed, and was quickly dieselized for double-stack clearances when the government of Mexico sold that route to KCS during privatization. BMLP bought 8 very low-mileage units and has intermixed them for the last dozen-plus years with its original E60C's. They are now in the process of giving the 6 active units full midlife overhauls into E60CF's (with the other 2 units scrapped for parts) so it can fully retire the last of its original E60C's (which were down to only a couple working units). Don't know if that rebuild has been completed yet. Deseret bought 5 of NdeM's to expand its fleet. Texas Utilities runs 3 ex-NdeM units on the obscure Martin Lake Line.


Interestingly, AMT ended up with a half-dozen or so of NdeM's -2's for some new expansion purpose that never materialized; they never ended up running. I'm guessing that unlike the unloved Amtrak units that passed secondhand to NJT, AMT saw the something in the later-generation -2's that would've made for a better passenger locomotive if they were overhauled for HEP. Seems less that the E60 platform was an inherently bad locomotive than the first generation wasn't given enough rope to have its quirks pounded out, and luck/outside circumstances didn't gel in its favor on the follow-through. Especially for the -2's which look like they're going to be around for decades to come.


So, circling back to-topic, unlike the Hippos which never quite worked right as a design, the E60's did mature with modification into a successful and reliable locomotive. Just not where we expected, or at the scale we expected.
  by John_Perkowski
 
I just went to google maps. Looking at the imagery, it appears the E-60s are still in use.
  by Backshophoss
 
The BM&LP units or the AMT units???
  by DutchRailnut
 
AMT(montreal) units were all cut up
http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cg ... 2233548809

only Amtr unit sold was : E60CH 961 > E60CH NJT961 in 1983 > Navajo Mine RR #23 in April 1995 > Scrapped Dec 2003
  by Matt Johnson
 
They do have a cool futuristic look to 'em, even if they're now relics of the past!
  by liftedjeep
 
Matt Johnson wrote:They do have a cool futuristic look to 'em, even if they're now relics of the past!
Under the actual picture in the bottom right corner is a link to the rest of the album with more mothballed Amtrak equipment. A few years back I shot most of the retired HHP-8 fleet in the deadline at the car shops in Bear.
  by gokeefe
 
Matt Johnson wrote:Who knew the E60 replacement would end up being even less successful than the E60?!
Apparently there will be a second act:
ApproachMedium wrote:They delt with a bunch of wrecked meatballs for years. And one that never made it thru AC conversion and scrapped. And it was hell on the railroad. Who knows if those two will be replaced, but the HHPs are all being returned to serviceable condition for sure. Every one of them is going thru the backshop and being restored.

The MARC unit is being redone. I dont think the MARCs are lease like the amtraks, somebody is footing the bill to replace the stuff inside with all new as I was told by a few sources they had one buried in the back of Martins airport shop for a while undergoing the transition. MARC is looking to expand service and add tracks in maryland so it would only make sense to maintain the electric fleet as the diesels will only be good as a replacement for the older diesels that are slow and the meatballs which were worthless for marc service.
Quite the surprise to say the least.
  by OrangeGrove
 
gokeefe wrote:
Matt Johnson wrote:Who knew the E60 replacement would end up being even less successful than the E60?!
Apparently there will be a second act:
ApproachMedium wrote:They delt with a bunch of wrecked meatballs for years. And one that never made it thru AC conversion and scrapped. And it was hell on the railroad. Who knows if those two will be replaced, but the HHPs are all being returned to serviceable condition for sure. Every one of them is going thru the backshop and being restored.

The MARC unit is being redone. I dont think the MARCs are lease like the amtraks, somebody is footing the bill to replace the stuff inside with all new as I was told by a few sources they had one buried in the back of Martins airport shop for a while undergoing the transition. MARC is looking to expand service and add tracks in maryland so it would only make sense to maintain the electric fleet as the diesels will only be good as a replacement for the older diesels that are slow and the meatballs which were worthless for marc service.
Quite the surprise to say the least.
If I understand correctly, Amtrak is required by terms of the lease agreement for the HHP-8 locomotives to maintain them in serviceable condition. Thus, is the work being performed on them related to such contractual requirements (which seems way more likely) or is something more interesting actually going on?
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Until you see them actually out on the yard moving on their own power and being prepped for road tests, don't get your hopes up. The Bombardier lease is filled with all kinds of P.I.T.A. shrapnel about keeping them in service-ready condition; it's a big reason for the breakdown in BBD-AMTK working relationship. For all we know this could mean little more than just shopping them as busywork to avoid obscure contract penalties...and burning some petty cash and staff time so they don't take a bigger pound of flesh upon lease expiration. Actual prep-for-service is a whole other threshold of activity that as of yet we don't yet have solid evidence is happening, and these rumors of lease-related prep-for-service have run momentarily hot before yet amounted to nothing. There's a need to maintain some healthy skepticism until we get some solid corroboration that this is realer than previous rumors, and some actual sustained sightings outside of the closed Wilmington garage bays of Hippos being awakened from slumber in the yard.
  by STrRedWolf
 
gokeefe wrote:Apparently there will be a second act:
ApproachMedium wrote:The MARC unit is being redone. I dont think the MARCs are lease like the amtraks, somebody is footing the bill to replace the stuff inside with all new as I was told by a few sources they had one buried in the back of Martins airport shop for a while undergoing the transition. MARC is looking to expand service and add tracks in maryland so it would only make sense to maintain the electric fleet as the diesels will only be good as a replacement for the older diesels that are slow and the meatballs which were worthless for marc service.
Quite the surprise to say the least.
Not really. With BBD now running the equipment on the CSX lines for MTA Maryland, and maintaining the MARC fleet, getting their hands on the HHP-8s they built and getting a chance to improve them isn't out of the question. If BBD can make the hippos more reliable, then MARC will run them on the Penn line... or else they'll replace them with more Chargers (on top of the ones they ordered to replace the old AEM-7s).

Known stuff in the purchase order they had to go through Maryland Board of Public Works to get approval for.
  by gokeefe
 
STrRedWolf wrote:Known stuff in the purchase order they had to go through Maryland Board of Public Works to get approval for.
So MTA submitted a PO that included overhauls of the HHP-8s?
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