Amtrak Heritage Diners Thread

[Tadman]

I think another good way to put this in perspective - consider the commuter carriers. With a few rare exceptions, they've retired just about everything from the 1970-ish era of gov't procurement. Those retirements were mostly en-masse, entire fleets being cast off. The reason? They were just worn out. When you consider their duty cycle, it's not half what Amtrak sees. A Silverliner or M2 doesn't move all night and also sees less runs mid-day, where a long distance train runs all day and night.

So to put it in perspective, you have a small fleet of 22 cars with varied background (you have 22 1-car fleets for some purposes) from 1950-ish running all day and night. Compare that to a fleet of 1970-ish M2's that were just retired, and they ran mostly at rush hour in a large fleet. They were still uneconomical to retain.

Things wear out. It's a way of life. Some may find new homes, but statistically, many don't. It's a good thing, because that frees up resources to keep a few in solid state of preservation rather than tens or hundreds in crummy shape. Consider the South Shore or North Shore cars from the 1920's - many were saved, few are in decent repair. Quite a lot are rusting away under tarps in fields.

[R30A]

Not to drag things too far off topic, but Metro North DID keep a number of M2s as spares which still run, and I think they are reactivating some more.

[bdawe]

I could be wrong, but GO, Metra, and SEPTA all seem to have a solid chunk of 1970's (or for Metra, earlier) Bilevels, Gallery Cars, and Silverliner IVs rolling around. Is 'throwing out everything from the 1970's' more of a New York-and-Boston thing?

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

I could be wrong, but GO, Metra, and SEPTA all seem to have a solid chunk of 1970's (or for Metra, earlier) Bilevels, Gallery Cars, and Silverliner IVs rolling around. Is 'throwing out everything from the 1970's' more of a New York-and-Boston thing?

"Run it till it drops" is definitely NJT's, MNRR/LIRR's, and Amtrak's modus operandi. I don't know if those other examples really fit because the service levels are an order of magnitude lighter on the non-NYC roads. SEPTA's system just isn't distributed very far from Philly, and their frequencies don't exactly knock one's socks off. Metra and GO, while having extensive systems and a lot of geographical suburban sprawl, have less suburban density than the Tri-state Area roads so their trains are less punishingly long and punishingly overcrowded/overweighted on their runs further out from the terminals.


Equipment lineages and practices are also apples-oranges. These old makes on the East Coast aren't in production anymore. EMU's are all AC propulsion now, so the DC traction Silverliner I-IV, Arrow, and M1/3 + M2/4/6 designs are all dead, non-revivable in production, and subject to slowly dwindling parts supply. The DC traction supply chain is simply gone. The last Amfleet rolled off the assembly line 34 years ago. The ubiquitous Comet-class coaches (incl. the Horizons) haven't been produced new in 14 years, are out-of-production because nobody's ordering new commuter rail flats, and existing fleets are on aggressive 2015-25 phase-out schedule by their remaining operators to displace them with bi-levels.

GO's 1st-generation Bombardier BLV's were so long-lasting because it's the the single most widely-used passenger coach in North America with Bombardier taking active orders on the eighth generation. Metra's gallery cars are a design that's been more or less standardized for 6 decades and is also still in-production. And Metra's the weird exception to the rule in being historically allergic to deferred maintenance on rolling stock, so the old-gen gallery cars are the best-case reference example for how long stuff could last if properly taken-care of. While the herd's been thinned considerably on the earliest/"antique" generations by this point, those two railcar lineages are near-immortal for rebuild in a way that not even the decade out-of-production Comets are.

[rohr turbo]

THere's a big difference between this fleet and VIa's fleet. This fleet is 22 cars of varied background and varied rebuilding regimen that has been run on grueling day-in, day-out service on select NYP-based trains. The Via fleet comes from a homogeneous background (IE parts are all the same) and basically serves two trains which run every third day.

Long story short, Via's parts department has to stock a lot less for a fleet that is used much more gently.

While I agree with you on the benefits of VIA's homogeneous fleet, I must quibble with your utilization assumption. From quick look at timetables, it appears:

Canadian diner is rolling 71% of the time (3 one ways: 13.5 days running and 5.5 days turning)
LSL/Silver Star diner is rolling 60% of the time (one full round trip: 101 hours rolling and 67 hours turning)

That's if all is on time and each trainset gets turned for the next departure. Furthermore VIA's fleet probably sees more cold. Let me know if I made an error.

[bostontrainguy]

Lake Shore loses diners . . .

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... -diner-car" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gokeefe]

Not surprising at all. Thankfully the replacements are mere months away from entering service.

[ApproachMedium]

They have been mere months of the past two years.

[gokeefe]

Agreed. I think if Amtrak had any reason to believe they would be much longer the Heritage cars would be repaired.

[mtuandrew]

gokeefe & ApproachMedium: or some Amfleet (better, Horizon) cafes would get upgraded "Diner Medium" kitchens (slotted between Diner Lite and heavy Heritage diners.) Seems easier & cheaper, if you can spare a half-dozen cars to install a grill and steam table (already an oven) in the footprint of four or so tables.

[ApproachMedium]

You have seen whats become of 91/92 if you dont think that wont happen and stay that way on all of the rest of the trains to save the bucks for maintaining those old cars even if it takes another 10 years they will do it.

[Arlington]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[ApproachMedium]

What im saying is amtrak will continue to remove these junky old diners and just run everything out of a cafe car. It doesnt matter if the new ones are ready to go or not. The old ones have reached well beyond their useful service life and cutting dining service on trains saves them a boatload of cash in maintaining that old car, the crew to work in it, and the food stock to support it. They are on a major warpath to shed additional costs right now. This is no sign of the preparation of the new cars coming.

[gokeefe]

Interesting point. Shades of the "Chessie" episode with the C&O.

[Tadman]

Three weeks back I rode the Eagle out of Chicago and there were perhaps 5 heritage diners tied up in the coach yard. They were not in the usual space, but rather near the track that holds Beech Grove-bound equipment. They were together with other oddball equipment, giving me the feeling that the cars were bound for Indy rather than another revenue run.

As far as the new diners go, I stopped caring a while back. The food ranges from poor to middling and the service is the same. I carry on even when I'm in sleeper.