• Amtrak Envisions World Class High-Speed Rail

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Station Aficionado
 
I think the key takeaways from this report are:

1) if you want a true HSR (e.g., like the TGV) on the NEC, you're going to need a separate dedicated ROW;
2) to achieve significant speed increases (and time reductions) between New York and Boston, a new alignment will be needed for much of the route; and
3) 1) and 2) plus all the other costs (e.g., trainsets) will involve megabucks (12 figures).

We (as a country) may decide to implement all of this plan (or, more accurately, vision), only part of it (I'm an incrementalist myself), or none of it. What the report, though, does is give some substance to all the gossamer babble about HSR. If we want a true HSR system from DC to Boston, it will have be something along the lines of what's in the report. We may decide it's not worth it, but at least we'll have a reasonable notion of what's involved. For example, if we think the massive fight that would surely ensue over a new alignment east of New York isn't worth it or would not be successful, then we'll know that for Boston-New York, we'll need to settle for something like we have now.

On that basis, I think this is a very good report. Given all the criticism Amtrak has received for not doing anything, this, combined with the recent equipment orders (with indications of more to come) shows that the wheels are turning up on Mass. Ave.
  by Matt Johnson
 
Station Aficionado wrote:I think the key takeaways from this report are:

1) if you want a true HSR (e.g., like the TGV) on the NEC, you're going to need a separate dedicated ROW;
I'm not entirely convinced of that, as I view this as true HSR.

The New York to Philly segment of the NEC, the portion of the route I'm most familiar with, is what I would consider high speed. Would it be worth spending tens of billions and using eminent domain through the heavily populated region to build a new right of way that might reduce travel time between New York and Philly from an hour to, say, 40 minutes? I don't believe so. I say replace the old variable tension catenary, increase speed to 150+ where possible (such as New Brunswick - Princeton Junction - Trenton), and maintain the NEC in a state of good repair!

Now, the New York - New Haven portion of the NEC might be another matter. If a high speed bypass could somehow be built, it would certainly be beneficial.
  by GP40 6694
 
In general, I like the idea of significantly improving the transportation in the Northeast, given that the Acela is a really weak offering for America's fastest train.

The first thing that I have to question is why the FRA imposes an arbitrary limit of 150mph? I understand you don't want trains doing 220 passing bulk freights, but why not use a delta speed system, instead of absolute speed? Allow, say a 100mph delta speed between the maximum speeds of trains on a given line, so if you have 100mph commuter trains, the most the high-speed trains can do it is 200mph. Also, banning passenger operation above 110 with freight would make sense too, but allow this distinction in real-time, i.e. they could run 200 on a line with freight, but as soon as they are within 5 miles of a freight train, a temporary speed restriction to 110 would be placed on the train. This would effectively force time separation.

Even taking the 150 rule as set in stone, a lot of the problem with the current Acela is not it's top speed, but rather it's average speed, especially on Metro-North. I personally like the Ronkonkoma route the UPenn featured, as Waterbury and Danbury really aren't work serving with HSR. I would, however, give them 100mph shuttles down to the NH line (i.e. upgrade Danbury and Waterbury lines with electrification, M-8's, and knock out some of the curves).

My plan, at least for the northern part of the corridor, with which I am much more familiar, would be to basically use the UPenn plan, but also to fix the inherent problems with the New Haven line to get it up to snuff for 100+ operation and get rid of a lot of the bottlenecks and add a newer signaling system to allow trains to run closer together, to keep existing Acela service, and add new high-speed trains along the Ronkonkoma-Hartford route. True HSR (even 150) over the New Haven and Shore Line routes is utterly hopeless.

The Springfield has a lot of promise for a piece of the HSR route, but in order to get it above 110 would require a massive grade separation project, as it is railroad crossing city. Wallingford is just awful, there's a crossing like every 3 blocks. As a result, UPenn's use of 91 for portions of it might be better, even if 91 is ugly as heck.

In terms of strategy, I think a combination of FRA class 6 shared track, and dedicated ROW's are the best bet, in order to allow ingress and egress from urban areas, as well as sharing with commuter services (although make the commuter services run with 125mph electric gear so you don't have P40's that can't get out of their own way running on your 150mph railroad).

The one big advantage that the route through Waterbury and Danbury may have would be system integration for commuter rail, as well as commuter rail being able to run east/west to Hartford, either through 150mph shared track, through a separated track built on the same ROW as used for the HSR project, or through the use of "high-speed" FRA qualified trains for commuter use (maybe rebuilt and de-rated Acelas once Amtrak wears them out).
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Look what NBC Nightly News considers newsworthy:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ns/ ... /#39428343

By comparo, be sure to note what "the other guys got"

$117 Billion.......30 years to complete.......not a cent of funding........until 2015........oh, and look what China has?

Well China has a lot of things that the United States doesn't have. China has lots of things the United States doesn't want to have, as well.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that China has advanced so quickly with HSR, since China has also advanced very quickly with conventional railways, and factory workers travel home to rural China often have to wait days at a time at train stations due to a lack of conventional capacity. It's also worth noting that China also has a lot of highway infrastructure building and actually subsidizes gasoline to increase automobile sales. China's basically pursuing every transportation option simultaneously.
  by kancamagus
 
Mod note: Incorrect quoting corrected. All members, please use caution when using partial quoting.
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:It shouldn't come as a surprise that China has advanced so quickly with HSR, since China has also advanced very quickly with conventional railways, and factory workers travel home to rural China often have to wait days at a time at train stations due to a lack of conventional capacity. It's also worth noting that China also has a lot of highway infrastructure building and actually subsidizes gasoline to increase automobile sales. China's basically pursuing every transportation option simultaneously.
Two things to add:

1. Nearly all of China's politicians are businessmen, scientists, or engineers, whereas most US politicians are lawyers with some businessmen, and only like two or three engineers.

2. Take the US federal government spending on defense and infrastructure, flip the percentages, and that's China's priorities. Instead of spending $2b each on planes that have never been used in combat, they build an entire grade-separated subway line in one of their cities. Shanghai opened their first subway line in 1995, and in only 15 years already passed NYC and London with 12 lines, 269 stations, and 261 miles of track, with about another dozen lines currently under construction or planning.

The US spends about $700b every year on defense programs. With better oversight of programs, more careful deliberation of what projects to pursue, and elimination of a lot of the unnecessary programs, the savings there could more than pay for building Amtrak's proposal for the NEC as well as CAHSR and a Chicago-centric network by 2040. Even if you could manage a 2% reduction in defense spending, you'd now have $14b annually to allocate to HSR development: $4.7 to NEC, $4b to CAHSR and Chicago each, and $1.3b for other projects. Even a 1% reduction in defense spending could support the full Amtrak NEC HSR plan and CAHSR.

And if Amtrak were to form separate sub-companies*, such as Amtrak California, Amtrak Northeast, Amtrak Chicago to run each of the new HSR networks independently under the umbrella name of Amtrak, the profits of these services could then be used only in these regions. These three regions could definitely become profitable with sufficient HSR service, at least profitable enough to subsidize lower-traffic or commuter operations in their service area. For example, better NEC service might subsidize trains like the Vermonter, Downeaster, or (possible return of the) Cape Codder to act as feeder lines to draw more riders onto their core corridor lines.

With different sub-companies running each of Amtrak's core markets, the regular Amtrak would run the remaining cross-country service. Most of these trains are the ones that require several hundred dollars in subsidies per rider. Then a reasonable discourse could be had about Amtrak; as it would make it easier to demonstrate profitable markets and unprofitable markets. This would (hopefully) make it easier for Amtrak to shed their unprofitable routes and focus on creating HSR service in core markets where they can at worse break even, and at best profit.

At the same time, Amtrak needs to look into creating new and viable funding sources to support the service, especially ones that include joint public-private support. Perhaps a tax-increment districts can be set up around the HSR stations, where the difference in taxes from property values (within a set radius) before and after the introduction of the HSR service can be used to fund the construction of that station. For example, if the value of a property was valued at $X before HSR service, but after HSR service was valued at $(X+Y), then the taxes from the increase of $Y would be allocated towards the construction bond repayment.

Another option is to greatly relax zoning requirements around HSR stations if new developments in that area fund HSR service. For example, if a company wants to build a new satellite branch of their offices near one of the suburban HSR stations to take advantage of cheaper real estate prices, if they (partially) fund the costs of the local station they can be relieved of maximum building heights and minimum parking requirements. OR, zoning requirements could be preemptively relaxed in HSR station-development-zones with significantly higher max building heights, maximum parking (instead of minimum parking) requirements, and tax incentives to locate there. By using either of these methods, development will concentrate around HSR stations, thus making it easier for people to avoid the "last mile problem" of using high-speed rail or public transit.

The only known thing right now is that if Amtrak retains the status quo, it will always require government subsidies. The only way Amtrak could fix itself is to focus on improving speed, capacity, reliability, and ridership in core markets and shed operations elsewhere. Who knows, if these Amtrak sub-companies can demonstrate profitability status, maybe they could even be (semi)privatized again, much like the joint public-private nature of nearly all foreign HSR companies?

Yes, this Amtrak plan is a long shot, but instead of negative pessimism, we should be breaking down this project into manageable sub-projects and asking ourselves what would it take to realize each of these goals?


* Perhaps to highlight the differences between these sub-companies and the original Amtrak, the name Amtrak could be dropped altogether in favor of a new name. Maybe even something like Acela Rail Corporation, so you'd have Acela Rail Northeast, Acela Rail California, Acela Rail Midwest, etc. This is just one idea; renaming and branding the Amtrak sub-companies is something for people smarter than me in marketing and branding to do.
  by 2nd trick op
 
kancamagus wrote:
Yes, this Amtrak plan is a long shot, but instead of negative pessimism, we should be breaking down this project into manageable sub-projects and asking ourselves what would it take to realize each of these goals?
In the nme of foresight, I strongly agree. Two years ago, the price of gasoline climed to $4.00/gallon. I'm convinced that that trend will re-assert itself at the first signs of an economic recovery, and it's quite possible that hedge fund activity (which, BTW, is driven by supposedly public-spirited institutions rather than individuals), will aggravate that pressure

So it would seem likely that any reform of our transport infrastructure should be geared to offering our citizens and taxpauyers some direct options to save on fuel when the next squeeze hits, as it surely will, and with a plan clearly in place and the most promnent obstacles addressed in advance. I believe that could be most readily accomplished by restoring a network of short and intermediate-distance services geared to exurban areas. Conventional technology can be the "prime mover" while prospects for upgrading the service are evaluated and implemented. unfiromity and interchangeability being a primary goal.

In some areas, such as Florida, Texas and California, only one state need be involved; but in others, such as exurban Chicago,and eastern Pennsylvania, state boundaries would necessarily have to be crossed. Ohio, with sufficient population density, but at least two major out-state metropolitan areas within 50 mles of its borders, is possibly the most interesting case of all. The proper role of the Federal government would be to make those plans as adaptable as possible, yet save on design and other costs by means of uniform standards.

But everything I've witnessed regarding the behavior of politicians and bureaucrats convinces me that that's not high on their list of priorities. And as evidenced by the thread below;

http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=137&t=75119

The most unrealistic and strident portions of the HSR "stampede" continue to be populated mostly by the young, the impressionable, and the less-techniclly and -economically-informed. The kiddies still want their shiny new Lionel set, and they won't be appeased by anything less.

And that is precisely the sort of attitude that is likely to solidify and increase the opposition from the other side of the aisle.
  by amtrakowitz
 
[b]Mike77E9[/b] wrote:News Release can be found here: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServe ... t_Plan.pdf

A Vision for High Speed Rail plan found here: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServe ... 2810LR.pdf
Fair use quote:
PHILADELPHIA – A Next-Generation High-Speed Rail service could be successfully developed in the Northeast with trains operating up to 220 mph (354 kph) on a new two-track corridor resulting in a trip time of about three hours between Washington and Boston cutting in half or better the current schedules, according to a concept plan released today by Amtrak.
This is not for anywhere else besides the Northeast Corridor. It's an overly-expensive plan (about seven times the per-unit-length cost of HSR alignments overseas) for a duplicate corridor, and the public should be highly insulted by it. With far less investment, triple-digit average speeds would be possible on both the former PRR and NHV.

But if they want to spend that kind of money, how about finishing the Chicago-NY Electric Air Line RR as a high-speed road? 745 miles is quite a short route, and at an average speed of 148 mph, trains would run between the two cities in 5 hours 2 minutes (and super-expresses would be capable of faster average speeds).
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
It's worth noting that only 20 miles out of 742 were ever completed. Basically, it was an early 20th century scheme to defraud investors.
  by amtrakowitz
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:But if they want to spend that kind of money, how about finishing the Chicago-NY Electric Air Line RR as a high-speed road? 745 miles is quite a short route, and at an average speed of 148 mph, trains would run between the two cities in 5 hours 2 minutes (and super-expresses would be capable of faster average speeds).
It's worth noting that only 20 miles out of 742 were ever completed. Basically, it was an early 20th century scheme to defraud investors.
Wouldn't surprise me. That of course is aside from whether it's actually technologically feasible or not.

BTW, $117 billion for such a corridor works out to about $157 million per mile, which is still overspending for such eligible corridors.
  by Paul1705
 
Jeff Smith wrote:I find the route from Westchester County Airport/White Plains interesting; a new NYW&B!
Yes, but there is only one intermediate stop!

I guess I'm half-serious here: if there is going to be a new tunnel from Grand Central to Westchester (through the Bronx, I assume), shouldn't there be an upper level for rapid transit (call it an extension of the Second Avenue subway)?

[Page 15 of the report assumes Grand Central as an additional New York stop, which pretty much rules out the Hell Gate route.]
  by Jeff Smith
 
Paul1705 wrote:I guess I'm half-serious here: if there is going to be a new tunnel from Grand Central to Westchester (through the Bronx, I assume), shouldn't there be an upper level for rapid transit (call it an extension of the Second Avenue subway)?
I like that idea; kind of like the 63rd St. Tunnel, build an upper and lower level, one for subway, one for HSR. I wonder if the plan envisions coopting the Park Av Tunnel just past GCT, which was once a rail route before the present GCT was built.
  by Paul1705
 
Jeff Smith wrote:
Paul1705 wrote:I guess I'm half-serious here: if there is going to be a new tunnel from Grand Central to Westchester (through the Bronx, I assume), shouldn't there be an upper level for rapid transit (call it an extension of the Second Avenue subway)?
I like that idea; kind of like the 63rd St. Tunnel, build an upper and lower level, one for subway, one for HSR. I wonder if the plan envisions coopting the Park Av Tunnel just past GCT, which was once a rail route before the present GCT was built.
The original Access to the Region's Core plan had a tunnel under 31st Street to Park Avenue and then north to Grand Central - the south side of Penn Station apparently was built with provisions for such an extension. It was certainly going to be deeper and wider than the old tunnel (more of a covered cut, actually) above it.

I don't know how Amtrak would handle it. They have speculated about coming into the north side of PSNY with their own tunnels to avoid the ARC dead end station. But that plan is now uncertain too.