Amtrak and Zip Car-Solving the Rental Problem

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Your response underlines the ideological basis of ZipCar's business model. Indeed, patronage for carsharing seems to be centered on a political agenda more than a practical and rational pattern of use. It goes well beyond even the fringes of environmentalism, as the business model of ZipCar apparently involves "the rejection of private ownership for something more collectivist."

Zipcar "collectivist"?? Now, that's silly. If you think Zipcar is "collectivist," you'd find these folks downright Trotskyite:
http://www.phillycarshare.org As a proud member of a "collectivist" bank (i.e., a credit union), I have warm feelings toward the various local non-profit car share organizations. But, to bring this back to Amtrak, I suspect that Zipcar is more attractive for Amtrak passengers, if you can tolerate its for-profit status (guess they need to repeat Collectivism 101).

The Metropolitan wrote:Edit again - neplus, I've been chuckling and shaking my head all day after reading that earlier post. Surely, if we're not willing to immerse ourselves in substantial personal debt for the good of the automotive economy by buying things we have very little need for, we are up to subersive activity, right?!

I never knew renting a car made me a subversive. Shh, better not tell anyone I rent my housing, too.

FFolz wrote:I never knew renting a car made me a subversive. Shh, better not tell anyone I rent my housing, too.

It isn't the act of renting or leasing ... it is the concept of sharing that would make you a subversive. Apparently the complainant has no issue with "regular" leasing and rentals ... just urbanites sharing the cost of a car.

The availability of Zip Cars doesn't bother me ... as long as private car ownership is still permitted. No one is suggesting Zip Cars should be the only option.

justalurker66 wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Indeed, patronage for carsharing seems to be centered on a political agenda more than a practical and rational pattern of use. It goes well beyond even the fringes of environmentalism, as the business model of ZipCar apparently involves "the rejection of private ownership for something more collectivist."

When I was in college (in a non-transit friendly city) many students had their own vehicles but there were a lot who were campus bound and couldn't go anywhere without a ride. Those with cars became taxi drivers for their fellow students and it was easy to fill a car for any trip off campus with people who needed to go shopping. Zip Cars would fill a need ... for those that wouldn't mind the annual and per hour fees. $7 to go to WalMart and be back in an hour is a bit steep but it is cheaper than a round trip cab ride and roughly the same as bus transportation (except for free shuttles).

I just want to correct your math here:

Zipcar rates do seem a bit steep at first. $7-$10 an hour....going to a store and back, a 3 hour trip, might cost $30! A cab is cheaper!

But the comparison really is this.

Owning a car costs around $20 a day in car payments + insurance. Parking, gas and maintenance is extra. Instead of paying $140 a week + gas, if you only need a car twice a week, you're paying $60 (including gas).

Thats why the target is strictly urban areas, especially when a daily parking rate goes for 15, 20 or even 30 dollars. If you live in a suburb, you need a car every day. Living in a city, you may only want to use a car a day a week.


Now, returning to amtrak.... Zipcar is a growing company. As I mentioned before, their "coverage" map is skewed by college franchises which are independently operated. Most of their cars are in cities like Boston and DC in very dense areas. They're also a newer company. As zipcar grows in membership, they might discover that enough people in Boston are members of zipcar AND plan on taking amtrak to Maine, at which point a zipcar would help them explore. Currently, they may not have a car in Maine because there is no car-free user base to support it.

The point being: Zipcar is not useful for an amtrak rider that is not a member at home. If you're taking an amtrak trip, it will probably be cheaper and easier to use hertz, thrifty etc at your destination. However, if you already are a zipcar member at home, then a car at your destination will help - as amember, you can rent any car in any city. Zipcar will only fill this need when it is profitable, and that means that there are enough likeminded people taking the same trips.

The main reason behind suggesting zip car is the attendant free check out process. All I have to do is tap a smart card and go.

While I would never rent a zip car for more than a day, it is very helpful to me as I arrive after rental car stores are closed.

I would say rent the zip car for a day and then pick up a regular rental.

My school waives the application fee, maybe Amtrak could work out a deal with zipcar like that.

jamesinclair wrote:

justalurker66 wrote:$7 to go to WalMart and be back in an hour is a bit steep but it is cheaper than a round trip cab ride and roughly the same as bus transportation (except for free shuttles).

I just want to correct your math here:

Zipcar rates do seem a bit steep at first. $7-$10 an hour....going to a store and back, a 3 hour trip, might cost $30! A cab is cheaper!

No, that isn't "correcting my math". That is presenting a different scenario. I presented going to WalMart and being back in an hour. You presented a longer trip. You're not correcting ANYTHING by submitting a different scenario. (You might as well compare owning a private varnish rail car to riding a bicycle ... although only one of those is going to get you to WalMart.)

gprimr1 wrote:The main reason behind suggesting zip car is the attendant free check out process. All I have to do is tap a smart card and go.

It isn't "tap and go" but doesn't at least one of the traditional rental agencies heavily advertise bypassing the counter? Pick any car and go (although there has to be some sign out process so they know who took what). Tap and go would be a good upgrade to traditional rental services, but with fleet sizes it would have to be phased in.

do they have community bike schemes in big cities .

Yes...

https://www.smartbikedc.com/program_information.asp

Suspiciously high amount of RED used in that color scheme.

I'm about a day from picking up the car in Emeryville. I will be sure to report on it.

justalurker66 wrote:

jamesinclair wrote:

justalurker66 wrote:$7 to go to WalMart and be back in an hour is a bit steep but it is cheaper than a round trip cab ride and roughly the same as bus transportation (except for free shuttles).

I just want to correct your math here:

Zipcar rates do seem a bit steep at first. $7-$10 an hour....going to a store and back, a 3 hour trip, might cost $30! A cab is cheaper!

No, that isn't "correcting my math". That is presenting a different scenario. I presented going to WalMart and being back in an hour. You presented a longer trip. You're not correcting ANYTHING by submitting a different scenario. (You might as well compare owning a private varnish rail car to riding a bicycle ... although only one of those is going to get you to WalMart.)

No, I am not presenting a different scenario.

You looked at the flat hourly rate of 7$-10$ per hour. When compared to a bus or a cab, that's expensive.

A zipcar member is not looking at each individual trip. Theyre looking at the cost of car ownership vs the cost of shared car. That's there business model.

jamesinclair wrote:
No, I am not presenting a different scenario.

You looked at the flat hourly rate of 7$-10$ per hour. When compared to a bus or a cab, that's expensive.

Look, that's not expensive compared to the cost of a cab anywhere I've ever gotten a cab. For me to get a cab to Walmart and back would cost about $40.* And even in most urban areas, it's not easy to just grab a cab -- I can't stand on my street and get one. I have to walk to the main street. On the main street, I can be pretty sure of getting one in five minutes or so during the day. At 7:00 at night, I might watch a bus go by before a cab comes along. Calling a cab means a long wait combined with the possibility that the cabbie they identify for you will decide it makes more sense to take someone to O'Hare, and forget to tell the dispatcher he's not coming. And I certainly couldn't flag down a cab at Walmart, so I guess I'd have to wait for one.

As I think about it, I can see why you think a trip to Walmart by cab would take 3 hours!!

So zipcar is

a) cheaper than a cab,
b) closer than a cab,
c) more timely than a cab.

So remind us, what was your arcane theory about why zipcar members choose them over cabs?

Of course you're arguing with someone who claims it would cost $7 to take a round-trip on a mass transit bus. I'm not sure where that would be true. Here in Chicago, the bus would cost $2.50 round-trip if you used the normal multi-trip discount pass. $2.00 for the first trip, and a 50 cent transfer for the 2nd.


* I thought I'd add some evidence. Cab fare in Chicago is $2.25 for the "flag pull" and $1.80/mile traveled, plus $1 for every 3 minutes elapsed (which is an average time to travel a mile, considering you're going 30 max, and you'd usually hit a light per mile.) So essentially, it's $2.80/mile.

So assuming a more reasonable zipcar cost of $14-20 (a two-hour trip to Walmart), you could only beat the low Zipcar estimate if Walmart was less than 2 miles away (since you already owe $15.70 round trip on a two-mile trip) and you're the sort of scumbag who doesn't tip. At 2.5 miles, you're already over the high estimate.

Bring your girlfriend with you, and those ranges decline, since an extra passenger is $1 (meaning $2 round-trip).

I'm all for anything that makes rental cars more accessible at more Amtrak stations. I've taken alot of trips to various Amtrak stations, and in cases where I'm on a day trip, having a car for a few hours would make life alot easier, especially stations that are off the beaten path.

ne plus ultra wrote:

jamesinclair wrote:
No, I am not presenting a different scenario.

You looked at the flat hourly rate of 7$-10$ per hour. When compared to a bus or a cab, that's expensive.

Look, that's not expensive compared to the cost of a cab anywhere I've ever gotten a cab. For me to get a cab to Walmart and back would cost about $40.* And even in most urban areas, it's not easy to just grab a cab -- I can't stand on my street and get one. I have to walk to the main street. On the main street, I can be pretty sure of getting one in five minutes or so during the day. At 7:00 at night, I might watch a bus go by before a cab comes along. Calling a cab means a long wait combined with the possibility that the cabbie they identify for you will decide it makes more sense to take someone to O'Hare, and forget to tell the dispatcher he's not coming. And I certainly couldn't flag down a cab at Walmart, so I guess I'd have to wait for one.

As I think about it, I can see why you think a trip to Walmart by cab would take 3 hours!!

So zipcar is

a) cheaper than a cab,
b) closer than a cab,
c) more timely than a cab.

So remind us, what was your arcane theory about why zipcar members choose them over cabs?

Of course you're arguing with someone who claims it would cost $7 to take a round-trip on a mass transit bus. I'm not sure where that would be true. Here in Chicago, the bus would cost $2.50 round-trip if you used the normal multi-trip discount pass. $2.00 for the first trip, and a 50 cent transfer for the 2nd.


* I thought I'd add some evidence. Cab fare in Chicago is $2.25 for the "flag pull" and $1.80/mile traveled, plus $1 for every 3 minutes elapsed (which is an average time to travel a mile, considering you're going 30 max, and you'd usually hit a light per mile.) So essentially, it's $2.80/mile.

So assuming a more reasonable zipcar cost of $14-20 (a two-hour trip to Walmart), you could only beat the low Zipcar estimate if Walmart was less than 2 miles away (since you already owe $15.70 round trip on a two-mile trip) and you're the sort of scumbag who doesn't tip. At 2.5 miles, you're already over the high estimate.

Bring your girlfriend with you, and those ranges decline, since an extra passenger is $1 (meaning $2 round-trip).

So your entire argument centers on the need of Chicago urban dwellers to access a Walmart? I thought trendy urbanites didn't shop at Walmart? Of course, I've never quite understood the allure of Chicago to the trendy urbanites.

Of course, if you're talking about taxi service, New York is unparalleled, both for the relative affordability of fares and the availability. As far as I'm concerned, NYP is the best venue in the world to hail a taxi, which also figures prominently into the desirability of NYP to rail passengers. The bus service on the west side of Manhattan also is outstanding.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:So your entire argument centers on the need of Chicago urban dwellers to access a Walmart? I thought trendy urbanites didn't shop at Walmart? Of course, I've never quite understood the allure of Chicago to the trendy urbanites.

Perhaps for Chicago Ikea would be the trendy big box store of choice. Walmart was in my example because there is a Walmart in the town where I attended college. (The nearest IKEA is 118 miles away. Over $100 by Zip Car!) At that particular school kids were always loading up for trips to Walmart, or walking if no car endowed person was available. Mainly the trips were just to get off campus for a while. That college is probably not the best market for Zip Cars.

Zip Cars work best as a extra service option in well transit served areas. Good for those who would use public transit for their regular trips and want a car for trips off of the transit grid or for special occasions or picking up items that they did not want to carry on public transit (and could not get delivered for less than the price of hiring a car - although a one way cab ride might be competitive, depending on the city/distance).

With hourly rates, Zip Cars are most cost effective when they are being driven ... and less cost effective when they are parked. Taking one out to pick up something and bring it back quickly is an effective trip. Taking one out to go see a movie is less cost effective as it sits for hours undriven. That is why I offered a quick trip to a local store as my example.