Amtrak ALC-42 Procurement (Long-Distance LD Charger Variant)

bretton88 wrote:

WesternNation wrote:

frequentflyer wrote:Look for Stadler to win the DMUs. Stadler is building an intercity set for the UK. These will most likely be used in the NEC. Think regional NEC service that can run down to Richmond with minimum fuss in DC switching to Diesel. Smart idea.

As I stated before, the DMUs of today are not the Metroliner, SPVs, or Turboliner of yesteryear. Things and technology do progress. Can't look to Europe for an Acela replacement and think their intercity DMUs are junk.

https://procurement.amtrak.com/irj/port ... 6565a217df" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They may not be junk, but they don’t conform to FRA standards. The FRA requires higher coupling strength standards than European regulators do, which effectively bars the intercity DMUs (like Stadler) from operating on US mainlines with freight traffic. There are several examples of DMUs in the US, but they are on dedicated “closed circuit” tracks. Those circuits are the only places where the Stadler GTW operates. Only Colorado Railcar and Nippon-Sharyo build FRA-compliant DMUs.

Alternative Tier 1 compliance also now exists, which Stadler does comply with. So they wouldn't need a waiver anymore. That being said, I don't know if CSX would let alternative tier 1s run on their rails, so who knows.

I still wouldn't expect to see them outside of the NEC. The major corridors (Chicago, Cascades, and California) all have new Siemens engines and will be getting Siemens cars in the next few years.

I don't really foresee any use for them outside of the Northeast unless Amtrak instituted a MASSIVE expansion of corridor service and Chicago doesn't have the capacity for it, with a majority of their corridor services operating out of the south concourse along with the LDs and Metra.

Springfield Service would be ideal for these DMUS as they are increasing frequency and you have a base in New Haven, so you could free up Amfleet cars for NEC runs.

Ryand-Smith wrote:Springfield Service would be ideal for these DMUS as they are increasing frequency and you have a base in New Haven, so you could free up Amfleet cars for NEC runs.

Most likely to replace the Amfleet not free them up.

Anderson obviously is not in loop of how RDC and SPV worked out , add to that failure of Danish IC-3 MU's and you can see failure in making.

frequentflyer wrote:

Ryand-Smith wrote:Springfield Service would be ideal for these DMUS as they are increasing frequency and you have a base in New Haven, so you could free up Amfleet cars for NEC runs.

Most likely to replace the Amfleet not free them up.

The Amfleets would be free to go on typical NEC routes, since the NEC won't go away from push pull till at LEAST 2040.

Although this RFI mentions DMUs, I'm not sure that is all that it covers. It mentions that Amtrak is "looking at integrated trainsets/DMU self-propelled cars and unpowered cars" - that leaves the door open for a builder like Siemens to propose a Brightline-style integrated trainset with a diesel or electric locomotive for power. It will be instructive to see what tomorrow's RFI relates to. I could see Amtrak purchasing locomotives, individual single-level cars (Amfleet replacements) and integrated trainsets from a single supplier for parts commonality and reduced design costs.

Stadler's current DMU offerings wouldn't be a great fit for the most likely DMU route (NHV-SPG shuttle) because they are low-floor designs; although Stadler has a well-deserved reputation for custom builds, designing a brand-new high floor DMU for such a limited application might not make sense. I would think that a Siemens trainset with a locomotive on one end (which can be swapped out from diesel to electric), coach/café cars in the middle, and a cab car on the other end, would be a much better fit for short corridor routes like Keystone, Empire, Downeaster and Vermonter service. Even most NEC Amfleet consists could be replaced by 8-car fixed trainsets, although I'm sure that would require new maintenance facilities to service trainsets together.

NeedhamLine wrote:Although this RFI mentions DMUs, I'm not sure that is all that it covers. It mentions that Amtrak is "looking at integrated trainsets/DMU self-propelled cars and unpowered cars" - that leaves the door open for a builder like Siemens to propose a Brightline-style integrated trainset with a diesel or electric locomotive for power. It will be instructive to see what tomorrow's RFI relates to. I could see Amtrak purchasing locomotives, individual single-level cars (Amfleet replacements) and integrated trainsets from a single supplier for parts commonality and reduced design costs.

Stadler's current DMU offerings wouldn't be a great fit for the most likely DMU route (NHV-SPG shuttle) because they are low-floor designs; although Stadler has a well-deserved reputation for custom builds, designing a brand-new high floor DMU for such a limited application might not make sense. I would think that a Siemens trainset with a locomotive on one end (which can be swapped out from diesel to electric), coach/café cars in the middle, and a cab car on the other end, would be a much better fit for short corridor routes like Keystone, Empire, Downeaster and Vermonter service. Even most NEC Amfleet consists could be replaced by 8-car fixed trainsets, although I'm sure that would require new maintenance facilities to service trainsets together.

Stadler makes Intercity trains too for high platforms. Project in the UK
https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/first ... er-anglia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can run under the catenary then on its own diesel power. Hmmm, where could Amtrak use such a beast?

I understand what you state about Siemens and commonality, but unless Amtrak includes another OEM, they will loose pricing power with Siemens.

frequentflyer wrote:
Stadler makes Intercity trains too for high platforms. Project in the UK
https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/first ... er-anglia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can run under the catenary then on its own diesel power. Hmmm, where could Amtrak use such a beast?

I understand what you state about Siemens and commonality, but unless Amtrak includes another OEM, they will loose pricing power with Siemens.

Very interesting! If Stadler wanted to get a foothold on the US market, perhaps the R&D would be worth it. I would still worry that the required modifications to the design (different loading gauge, safety requirements, a preference to use stainless instead of carbon steel) would make it prohibitively expensive to design a DMU or DEMU for the North American market - but that all depends on how many Amtrak intends to order.

The NGEC (PRIIA) May minutes indicate that an RFI for new passenger cars is forthcoming from Amtrak - I wouldn't be surprised if that is tomorrow's RFI.

NeedhamLine wrote:Although this RFI mentions DMUs, I'm not sure that is all that it covers. It mentions that Amtrak is "looking at integrated trainsets/DMU self-propelled cars and unpowered cars" - that leaves the door open for a builder like Siemens to propose a Brightline-style integrated trainset with a diesel or electric locomotive for power. It will be instructive to see what tomorrow's RFI relates to. I could see Amtrak purchasing locomotives, individual single-level cars (Amfleet replacements) and integrated trainsets from a single supplier for parts commonality and reduced design costs.

Stadler's current DMU offerings wouldn't be a great fit for the most likely DMU route (NHV-SPG shuttle) because they are low-floor designs; although Stadler has a well-deserved reputation for custom builds, designing a brand-new high floor DMU for such a limited application might not make sense. I would think that a Siemens trainset with a locomotive on one end (which can be swapped out from diesel to electric), coach/café cars in the middle, and a cab car on the other end, would be a much better fit for short corridor routes like Keystone, Empire, Downeaster and Vermonter service. Even most NEC Amfleet consists could be replaced by 8-car fixed trainsets, although I'm sure that would require new maintenance facilities to service trainsets together.

Amtrak is already receiving integrated trainsets like Brightline, although not exactly in the traditional way. Because of the collapse of the N-S deal for bilevels, Siemens got the nod to build the trainsets for the Chicago and California corridors. There’s a few renderings of what they’ll look like out there, and the possibility of a cab car on one end too, sort of like the Talgo trainsets, except not as ugly:

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... ation.pptx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If tomorrow’s RFI is going to be for new coaches, I’d imagine that Siemens will have a leg up on others, considering they have examples in service already. The NGEC specifically chose Siemens for the cars because they were the quickest way to get a proven, validated design. If I’m understanding Anderson’s intent, he wants the same thing, which would again put Siemens at a significant advantage because they’re producing now. The only drawback is that they have orders for IDOT and Caltrans already, and those aren’t expected to be completed until the mid-20s.

If N-S wants to stay in the US market, they have a high-floor DMU in service and on the market right now. Stadler and Siemens (with Alstom) have great products as well, but Nippon Sharyo has a track record on the Corridor too. Best not count them out yet.

Though I still think a mid-horsepower locomotive (rebuild a Genesis with an MTU or Cummins engine, anyone?) would be a better choice than all-new DMUs.

frequentflyer wrote:Stadler makes Intercity trains too for high platforms. Project in the UK
https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/first ... er-anglia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can run under the catenary then on its own diesel power. Hmmm, where could Amtrak use such a beast?

I understand what you state about Siemens and commonality, but unless Amtrak includes another OEM, they will loose pricing power with Siemens.

To be fair, the Class 745 and 755 Stadler trains being built for East Anglica will have floors 960 mm (just shy of 38 inches) above top of rail. Not quite the 48 inches seen on the NEC. Would it be impossible to have a 10 inch ramp in its vestibules?

NeedhamLine wrote: Very interesting! If Stadler wanted to get a foothold on the US market, perhaps the R&D would be worth it. I would still worry that the required modifications to the design (different loading gauge, safety requirements, a preference to use stainless instead of carbon steel) would make it prohibitively expensive to design a DMU or DEMU for the North American market - but that all depends on how many Amtrak intends to order.

The NGEC (PRIIA) May minutes indicate that an RFI for new passenger cars is forthcoming from Amtrak - I wouldn't be surprised if that is tomorrow's RFI.

Stadler uses extruded aluminum with most of its train products, that’s primilarly how they achieve lower car weights. But they do use regular steel with their power units inserted between cars where the diesels are located.

Nippon Sharyo’s recent DMUs have to have diesels under every car for propulsion - much like old RDCs did.

electricron wrote:To be fair, the Class 745 and 755 Stadler trains being built for East Anglia will have floors 960 mm (just shy of 38 inches) above top of rail. Not quite the 48 inches seen on the NEC. Would it be impossible to have a 10 inch ramp in its vestibules?

Yes, that’s impossible due ADA. And why would they? Easier to put taller trucks underneath.

I can think of a few places a DMU or smaller integrated trainset would make sense outside the NEC.

I can see it working on lower volume routes like Fort Worth-Oklahoma City and Chicago-Quincy, and for expansion/exploratory routes like Milwaukee-Green Bay or the proposed reboot of Chicago-Dubuque. Just because an idea failed 40 years ago doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying that technology again.

It honestly boggles my mind why we don't use DMU's more in the US. After being on many different units in both Ireland and England, they seem like a comfortable reliable way to travel. I know we had issues with the RDC's, and more importantly the SPV's but why can we use proven off the shelf technology from Siemens or Alstom that is alreay in use? It is exactly what we are doing with the new Acela, why couldn't work over here. The New Haven to Springfield line would be a great place for these units.

Feel free to rebuke my statements, maybe there is something I am missing.