All Things Empire Builder

jstolberg wrote:

David Benton wrote:A 2nd daytime train to MSP, (and possibly beyond), would allow retiming of the Empire Builder. This would allow an overnite layover in Seattle, shorter turn in Chicago. Which should free up a train set , making the proposition equipment neutral.

Not exactly equipment neutral since the round trip Chicago-St. Cloud would require 2 train sets, not 1. But the day trains would not need the entire consist, probably just a single P42, 4 coaches and a lounge or cross-country cafe.

Or, as has been mentioned, a P42 pulling a Wisconsin Talgo set. Either way, given the distance, some sort of maintenance facility would need to be constructed at the Minnesota end of the line. Hopefully, the facility would service both the new intercity train and the North Star commuter trains.

If the original proposal for Northstar trains had panned out, they would have been serviced in Rice (about 10-15 miles past St. Cloud on the BNSF Northern Transcon.) Instead, the current service point is in Big Lake, 30-40 miles southeast of St. Cloud. I don't know whether the demand for MSP-STC service is there yet, but it sounds like someone at MnDOT is interested in making a fait accompli to cheaply extend Northstar - "hey look, we have two underutilized servicing points, how about we sell the Big Lake one and move Northstar into these new digs? Oh, and let's serve the other towns on the way too."

Regarding equipment, I'd expect four coaches, one of which was a snack coach. We could also get Horizons, I suppose, particularly if this is an extended Hiawatha. Wonder if Friends of the 261 has enough spare equipment to outfit a pair of trains...

Funny how I have a way of reliving historical memories (hope this appropriate here).

Last evening, my NRHS Chapter, North Western Illinois (spelt like the railroad; not the university), held its monthly meeting at the former 'Q' station in Oregon, IL. While, I had not been near the structure since my A-Day Eve 'farewell' trip on MILW 103, City, to Savanna and returning on BN 8, Zephyr, it is now owned by the city, fairly well maintained - even air conditioned, and is available for groups such as ours.

During the BYO (and BYOB; Rule G waived) cookout Dinner hour, I was sitting inside and staring at the Ticket Cage. All I could think of was 'I'd like a Roomette on the Empire Builder to Seattle for today; and a return in a week'. 'Well Sir, he's left Chicago and uh, let's see, they release their space if any, to St Paul'. 'OK, let me phone Chicago and see if they released any'. 'Well, they did; now I'll phone St Paul and get you one.' 'OK Sir, I have you Roomette 7, Car 3105 for this afternoon's Builder leaving here at 402P today. Now let's see, for your return, I'll have to wire Seattle and you can pick it up when you get there.' 'But I'd like to pay for it all now'. 'Well, I'll sell you an Open Pullman for a Roomette if you wish'. 'OK, may I write you a check for this?'. 'Of course, it will be, uh let me check my addition once more (mechanical adding machine clanks away), $177.38, and make your check to the CB&Q'. 'Thank you'. Here you go Sir, he's on time, so just have a seat, and have a great trip'.

Youngsters, that's how it was pre-Arrow (or whatever Amtrak Res and Ticketing system is known as); I've 'been there done that'.

With the talk of a second trip on the Empire Builder, I am almost thinking when it gets to the point of going all the way through to Seattle, I am thinking it might be a great time to really start pushing for the North Coast Hiawatha to increase the national network coverage again. As per usual, the capital cost is what would kill an opportunity. What I think would have to happen is some improvements between Chicago-St. Cloud to begin with which would make the cost decrease slightly, other than that though, restoration would be an expensive proposition.

MCHammer wrote:With the talk of a second trip on the Empire Builder, I am almost thinking when it gets to the point of going all the way through to Seattle, I am thinking it might be a great time to really start pushing for the North Coast Hiawatha to increase the national network coverage again. As per usual, the capital cost is what would kill an opportunity. What I think would have to happen is some improvements between Chicago-St. Cloud to begin with which would make the cost decrease slightly, other than that though, restoration would be an expensive proposition.

There are more capital improvements going on right now than you can imagine. I offer for your consideration BNSF's 2013 capital investments in Montana and North Dakota.

Montana: $115 million
Unit train staging tracks east of Glasgow
Replacement of 100 miles of track and 310,000 ties
2,300 miles of track surfacing and undercutting
PTC signal improvements.
http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/clas ... 30816.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Dakota: $220 million
Raising 10 miles of track over Devils Lake
New double crossover track east of Williston
Upgrading the line between Berthold and Northgate
3 new sidings near Manitou, Tioga and Palermo
Extending 2 sidings near Glen Ullin and Hillsboro
Improvements to 6 more sidings between Minot and Grand Forks
Installing CTC on 3 sidings near Devils Lake, Hillsboro and Towner
Replacement of 315 miles of track and 415,000 ties
Undercutting and resurfacing 1,900 miles of track
PTC signal improvements.
http://www.bnsf.com/media/news-releases ... 8-15a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The improvements are not limited to the Hi-line. I called a motel in Lemmon, SD on the Dakota Division and was told that the railroad has taken every available room on September 19th.

MCHammer wrote:With the talk of a second trip on the Empire Builder,
... when it gets to the point of going all the way
through to Seattle, ... it might be a great time to really
start pushing for the North Coast Hiawatha ...

Now would be a great time to start pushing for more
investment to make possible adding frequencies
Spokane-Seattle.

Developing at least minimal corridor service at both ends
of the Empire Builder would help the system in many ways.
And incremental improvements do not require the staggering
sums at all once that the PRIIA study suggested would be
required for the North Coast Hiawatha.

The Cascades service has been a big hit, with another
billion going into upgrades to increase capacity there by
roughly 50%. Washington could pick up spare Talgo train sets
for a Spokane service and maintain them at an existing base
in Seattle.

So I keep wondering why there's not more talk of possible
future service Spokane-Seattle. This forum is pretty thin
on West Coast experts, but anyone care to comment?

Seems all this plan needs is money, and probably a lot of it.

Can't happen now because both parties are pursuing
the same cut-government-spending, budget-balancing
policies that President Herbert Hoover stuck with while
the Great Depression got worse and worse and worse.

So until we quit repeating that history, we've got time
to dream -- and perhaps to plan.

I'd be happy to see NCH service, but I'd be happier to see this first:
-an additional CHI-MSP (and on to STC and beyond, maybe to Minot or Winnipeg)
-another SEA-SPK frequency
-a second POR-SPK
-Hiawatha service to Madison
-a third CHI-MSP (and on to Duluth)
-a Hiawatha or two extended from MKE to Green Bay
-a fourth CHI-MSP to Bismarck and/or Aberdeen
-a third SEA-SPK
-Thruway service from multiple points in the western Dakotas, Montana, and Idaho to Fargo and/or Spokane

Then, and only then, would I welcome a new North Coast Hiawatha... but I'd be fine without it.

When it comes to Seattle-Spokane, there is currently more focus on when the long overdue Pt. Defiance Bypass will be done. Currently with how the trackage is from Seattle-Everett, any train going via the Stevens Pass tunnel would have reliability issues during winter. In addition, it takes 8 hours to get from Spokane to Seattle when driving takes 6 hours. The entire section would need to be sped up quite a bit in order to be worth adding a frequency for Spokane in my opinion. Eastern Washington offers the best opportunity for this given the flatter lands from Wenatchee-Spokane, but the current alignment for the BNSF corridor is quite windy. Also, the Stevens Pass tunnel has to ventilate before another train can go through. In my fantasy world, I would electrify the corridor for fast-freight movements and double track the tunnel while easing curves. Easing curves from Everett-Sultan would not be a challenge, but once you cross the Forest Service boundary, forget that happening.

I would rather see that corridor become a dedicated HSR corridor with potential connections to the Tri-Cities in an overall vision. Given the congestion that regularly occurs on weekends at Snoqualmie and the shear amount of freight that travels the corridor, I think a fast-freight corridor that can have mixed high-speed train operations would be my vision.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Funny how I have a way of reliving historical memories (hope this appropriate here).

Last evening, my NRHS Chapter, North Western Illinois (spelt like the railroad; not the university), held its monthly meeting at the former 'Q' station in Oregon, IL. While, I had not been near the structure since my A-Day Eve 'farewell' trip on MILW 103, City, to Savanna and returning on BN 8, Zephyr, it is now owned by the city, fairly well maintained - even air conditioned, and is available for groups such as ours.

During the BYO (and BYOB; Rule G waived) cookout Dinner hour, I was sitting inside and staring at the Ticket Cage. All I could think of was 'I'd like a Roomette on the Empire Builder to Seattle for today; and a return in a week'. 'Well Sir, he's left Chicago and uh, let's see, they release their space if any, to St Paul'. 'OK, let me phone Chicago and see if they released any'. 'Well, they did; now I'll phone St Paul and get you one.' 'OK Sir, I have you Roomette 7, Car 3105 for this afternoon's Builder leaving here at 402P today. Now let's see, for your return, I'll have to wire Seattle and you can pick it up when you get there.' 'But I'd like to pay for it all now'. 'Well, I'll sell you an Open Pullman for a Roomette if you wish'. 'OK, may I write you a check for this?'. 'Of course, it will be, uh let me check my addition once more (mechanical adding machine clanks away), $177.38, and make your check to the CB&Q'. 'Thank you'. Here you go Sir, he's on time, so just have a seat, and have a great trip'.

Youngsters, that's how it was pre-Arrow (or whatever Amtrak Res and Ticketing system is known as); I've 'been there done that'.

Mr Norman, I think that is worthy of a post in the rail travel forum. I have a few observations of my own to add, but I think NZ may be a bit far away for a MSP topic.

MCHammer: what about a train via Yakima? It would take longer, but there is less traffic on the former NP, and more population.

Mr. Norman: the ticket clerk in your daydream wasn't named Julie, was she?

jstolberg wrote:

MCHammer wrote:With the talk of a second trip on the Empire Builder, I am almost thinking when it gets to the point of going all the way through to Seattle, I am thinking it might be a great time to really start pushing for the North Coast Hiawatha to increase the national network coverage again. As per usual, the capital cost is what would kill an opportunity. What I think would have to happen is some improvements between Chicago-St. Cloud to begin with which would make the cost decrease slightly, other than that though, restoration would be an expensive proposition.

There are more capital improvements going on right now than you can imagine. I offer for your consideration BNSF's 2013 capital investments in Montana and North Dakota.

Montana: $115 million
Unit train staging tracks east of Glasgow
Replacement of 100 miles of track and 310,000 ties
2,300 miles of track surfacing and undercutting
PTC signal improvements.
http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/clas ... 30816.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Dakota: $220 million
Raising 10 miles of track over Devils Lake
New double crossover track east of Williston
Upgrading the line between Berthold and Northgate
3 new sidings near Manitou, Tioga and Palermo
Extending 2 sidings near Glen Ullin and Hillsboro
Improvements to 6 more sidings between Minot and Grand Forks
Installing CTC on 3 sidings near Devils Lake, Hillsboro and Towner
Replacement of 315 miles of track and 415,000 ties
Undercutting and resurfacing 1,900 miles of track
PTC signal improvements.
http://www.bnsf.com/media/news-releases ... 8-15a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The improvements are not limited to the Hi-line. I called a motel in Lemmon, SD on the Dakota Division and was told that the railroad has taken every available room on September 19th.

Where did I recently read that BNSF was going to put a second main train in west of Minot? about 35 miles of it, IIRC.

mtuandrew wrote:MCHammer: what about a train via Yakima? It would take longer, but there is less traffic on the former NP, and more population.

Mr. Norman: the ticket clerk in your daydream wasn't named Julie, was she?

That is exactly what I was thinking for connecting the Tri-Cities. I prefer the idea of increasing coverage for the network while at the same time adding frequency to some corridor lines. I would like to work and refine some proposals if I could find a job for that.

If Washington was to sponsor a "day train" from Seattle to Spokane and back - through curves and needing higher speeds - seems like the Talgos could fit the bill a little better. Either route - from Portland or Seattle - it would be worth while to extend a train out to Spokane in my opinion. Alternative trackage - should be considered, but hit major population points that would still be competitive to driving.

On a broader scale, it would seem there are "corridor" trains that would be benficial on the Empire Builder's route - on both the west end and east end. For example - Spokane to Seattle and Chicago to Twin Cities. The later is really taking a hit on ridership eastbound with a constant late #8.

By the way, I don't know if they are due to have left on today's Builder, but people between St. Paul and Chicago should keep an eye out for a group of private cars including five MILW-liveried, CBQ Silver Quail, and the Levi's sponsored art car. They were parked on the ready track at Midway last night, with Skytop Lounge "Cedar Rapids" properly pointed for a Chicago expedition.

Rockingham Racer wrote: Where did I recently read that BNSF was going to put a second main train in west of Minot? about 35 miles of it, IIRC.

Found this permit for 12 miles of second main from Ray to Tioga.
http://www.nwo.usace.army.mil/Portals/2 ... 48-BIS.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PROJECT DESCRIPTION.
BNSF Railway’s proposed project would involve the construction of approximately 12 miles of new mainline track directly adjacent to an existing mainline track within existing BNSF right-of-way (ROW).
Along with the construction of the new mainline, rail switching equipment would be constructed at both the east and west ends of the new track in order to facilitate switching operations.
As a result of this construction, approximately 2.47 acres of jurisdictional wetlands will be permanently impacted.

Anthing new on the Culbertson, MT proposed stop?