All Aboard Podcast: Why All the Amtrak H8?

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:47 pm As long as Amtrak is funded by a line in an Appropriations Act, all of this is a pipe dream.

Correct. However why not break appropriations into operating costs and the fixed management costs into separate line items. Amtrak would have to list P / L of the routes which "MAY" reduce some of the outrageous costs for example the Sunset.? OMP this allocating costs really hides what it really costs. Am thinking of the per mile costs of a loco and passenger cars. Of course, congress is going to need to demand transparency which for various reasons has not been forth coming.

Because it all falls in whatever appropriations act funds DOT.

west point wrote:
Correct. However why not break appropriations into operating costs and the fixed management costs into separate line.

That would eventually lead to accounting games and no one would ever know what really belonged in which bucket.

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The point of the article is that centralized management has fatal flaws. But decentralized management is also subject to the fatal flaw of being too successful. The best example is what happened to the Coast Starlight.
1. The train was really bringing in the patrons.
2. The Pacific Parlor cars really had the sleepers bringing in the patrons and revenue. Too successful with result they were removed from service and quickly sold to prevent them going back into service from congressional pressure.
3. The CS route manager wanted to add another SL car ( time when SLs were not all in use) but headquarters wanted to charge the route an amount that would have made the extra revenue not profitable.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:21 pm A little bit of multi year certainty and consistency in the mission

This is a good point but when the company steps up to the plate and buys the Michigan Line, the certainty is there. If you can dedicate the $150m purchase plus $196m upgrade funding, you can make a couple PDF's showing what doors to open and how to run the manned stations.

And therein really lies the farce that is Amtrak. They spent $350m to buy the Michigan line and untold millions on the Chargers and Venture cars. Money isn't really a problem at Amtrak. Management is.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtra ... 883c&ei=15

That article explains exactly what we've been talking about. Front line staff may care about the job they do, but management doesn't support those efforts and the passengers end up getting stuck in the middle of (almost) nowhere.

"I just wish they would have maybe shown they cared more about their passengers and what happened to us," Henneford said. "It didn't seem they were communicating with the staff either because we told them the terminated train.

Henneford wanted to be clear: the train staff was exceptional. Her qualms are with the company which, according to her, has not reached out about refunds or travel vouchers.

"The conductors and staff that really saved the situation were named Joshua H., in the food car, AJ, Jason, Pat, Dave, Doug, and Joshua on the Casade 509 and 511," Henneford said.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:59 pm And therein really lies the farce that is Amtrak. They spent $350m to buy the Michigan line and untold millions on the Chargers and Venture cars. Money isn't really a problem at Amtrak. Management is.

The Chargers and Venture cars were purchased by and are owned by the states of Illinois and Michigan. It was these states that chose to have their own local pool of owned equipment. Amtrak was in the room but not the decision maker.

That doesn't change the fact that there is all this money for tracks and trains and they can't figure out how to provide service as good as a McDonalds or Holiday Express. Maybe the states should spend they money to hire a service level manager. Why hasn't Gretchen Whitmer rode the train on a cash fare for anonymity? We know we'll never see Jay Pritzker's billionaire behind on an Amtrak. But he could send an associate.

The only train staff actually trained to service passengers are the food and sleeper attendants who are members of the Pullman Union, not the driver and conductor staff who are members of the Railway Union. On all trains, you will find drivers and conductors more concerned with operating the train than serving passengers. Only on sleeper trains will you find attendants trained for serving passengers, with the food attendant being more worried about inventory and payment.
So why are so many surprised that service is terrible on trains without sleepers?

Tadman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:41 am That doesn't change the fact that there is all this money for tracks and trains and they can't figure out how to provide service as good as a McDonalds or Holiday Express. Maybe the states should spend they money to hire a service level manager. Why hasn't Gretchen Whitmer rode the train on a cash fare for anonymity? We know we'll never see Jay Pritzker's billionaire behind on an Amtrak. But he could send an associate.

All good questions for these two state governments. There are definitely some uneven items performance wise in some of the Amtrak state services and the midwest services do seem to have some struggles. Could some of it come down to inferior performance by Amtrak at Chicago as compared to some other locations? Possibly. But examining whether all the correct decisions are being made - both past and present - within this state owned fleet program ought to be at least part of the conversation. Those two state's agencies - IDOT and MDOT and the people at them involved in managing the operations and making decisions need to be in the room - along with Amtrak if these state legislatures decide to do an inquiry.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:55 am The only train staff actually trained to service passengers are the food and sleeper attendants who are members of the Pullman Union, not the driver and conductor staff who are members of the Railway Union. On all trains, you will find drivers and conductors more concerned with operating the train than serving passengers. Only on sleeper trains will you find attendants trained for serving passengers, with the food attendant being more worried about inventory and payment.
So why are so many surprised that service is terrible on trains without sleepers?

My head just exploded. Virtually none of this is rooted in reality.

Tadman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:42 pm My head just exploded. Virtually none of this is rooted in reality.

Really?
When was the last time you saw a train conductor rise via Amtrak's attendant ranks?
When was the last time you saw an engineer/driver rise to cook or sleeper attendant?
The fact5s remain these crew members belong to different unions and therefore are trained differently?
One crew type interacttions with passengers in entirely different ways than the other.

Would you rather have an engineer and conductor following the operations rules of handling the train perfectly, or one with emphasis having a sweet smile on their face the entire time pleasing customers first?
I would definitely prefer the former rather than the latter and live to give a nasty review of their poor customer service than die!

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:13 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:42 pm My head just exploded. Virtually none of this is rooted in reality.

Really?

Really.

You have asserted that there is a "railway union", a "pullman union", that none of the operating personnel are trained to handle customers, that the only good service is on sleeper trains. None of this is true. Zero. There are multiple trade unions and none are known as "railway" or "pullman", a term that has not been used in decades. Operating personnel, especially conductors and assistant conductors, are absolutely trained in customer service.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:13 pmI would definitely prefer the former rather than the latter and live to give a nasty review of their poor customer service than die!

Again nobody is going to die because the conductor is giving good customer service. This has never happened. This might be the craziest thing we've heard all week.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:13 pm Really?
When was the last time you saw a train conductor rise via Amtrak's attendant ranks?
When was the last time you saw an engineer/driver rise to cook or sleeper attendant?
The fact5s remain these crew members belong to different unions and therefore are trained differently?
One crew type interacttions with passengers in entirely different ways than the other.

Mr. Junkie, will you share your Amtrak "career path" with Ron?

I think the conductors could do with more customer service training.
In NZ under the "government" railways service was terrible.they would serve you warm beer ( a cardinal sin down under) , and basically ignore you . then the services came under threat. What a transformation. They started working as a team to save the trains. The engineer would jump out of the cab to help unload luggage , ( and score a cup of coffee , why not ?). the guard (conductor) became the train manager , but still performed all duties the rest of the onboard team did. they would switch roles depending on what needed doing , so the person checking your ticket could be behind the cafe counter the next time you saw them .
the reality is the conductor and assistant conductor are not running the train. they can't even see the signals . They are conveying door / passenger info to the engineer , but there's no safety reason why they can't take on more customer service roles.