Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Agreed on that, Mr. O’Keefe. Avelia Horizon would allow for more first class and business class seating though, which regardless of supply can always be sold at a higher bucket than coach seating on Regionals. Selfishly, it might drive Acela prices down far enough that a humble guy like myself could grab a joyride on occasion

I'll agree that Acela should be targeted for higher class services using single level cars providing lots of elbow room. I'll agree Amtrak should be providing a better lower class services using bilevel cars. Amtrak is looking at replaciing their Amfleet Is with new cars, why not this bilevel car from Alstom - using the new Acela locomotives with the new bilevel HSR cars crammed woth passengers as tight as possible so lower fares can be charged and that don't necessarily need tilt technology to go really fast?

For the moment the answer is that the single level cars are cheaper, in production and PRIIA compliant.

Returning to topic I have to observe that Bombardier's efforts with regard to the HHP-8's lead me to seriously wonder whether or not a similar effort might be forthcoming on the Acela.

Could be an impressive addition to capacity for Amtrak at a very low cost. Not sure how they would brand it ... Perhaps a return of Acela Regional.

MARC kinda got lucky that BBD was willing to work on such an old product. Amtrak hasn't signaled that they want to upgrade their own HHPs, nor that they’re ready to bury the hatchet with Bombardier. Not to mention, even if the AX-1 power cars could receive the same upgrades as the HHPs (and they are somewhat different machines, so that’s not assured), the cars themselves need a midlife overhaul that neither BBD nor Amtrak have planned.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Amtrak offering a service like OuiGo with the AX-1s, but it’s still an orphan fleet without a current parts supplier.

Alstom is doing the overhaul of the Marc HHP's. Not Bombardier.

Acela150 wrote:Alstom is doing the overhaul of the Marc HHP's. Not Bombardier.

I didn’t realize that, thanks.

Also, even less reason for Alstom to offer to upgrade the AX-1s, unless they want to cheat themselves out of selling Avelias. Would be nice to see Amtrak HHPs reliable enough to be on the rails again though, from a strictly railfan perspective.

Acela150 wrote:Alstom is doing the overhaul of the Marc HHP's. Not Bombardier.

Not sure if you have direct access ... However other posters, who would likely have reason to know, indicate that Bombardier is the contractor. Unsure if Alstom might be a subcontractor ...

I only bring up this possibility at all because older high speed trainsets are often placed in secondary service when new ones come in. Germany with the ICE/ICE 2/ICE 3/ICE-T is a good example.

I think we all agree that Acela is an inefficient "bank vault on wheels". That being said ... If it stays in revenue service, with certain upgrades, it seems likely to produce substantial revenues that could cover any foreseeable costs. The additional benefit to Amtrak would be the new fleet flexibility that would be available from redeployment of Amfleet coaches throughout the system.

There are plenty of trains that could sellout with longer consists or additional frequencies.

I would add that for the airlines *two* bonafide fleets of high speed trainsets operating on the NEC is something of a nightmare scenario for East Coast shuttle service.

Even with the inadequacies of the line re: limited high platforms and few crossovers, the AX-1 would make a good Harrisburg Hotrod too. That would allow Amtrak to take the last Metroliner cabs out of service, which it seems they’ve been eager to do for a long while.

Because it's a state funded service I don't think that's a viable proposal.

That being said there are plenty of Northeast Regionals that could do very well as "upgraded" Acela Regionals. Leave the Amfleets to the off-corridor services (VA, NC, MA, NY, PA, VT, ON, QC) where they are needed most.

The Acela I's should become the holiday reserve fleet for the NEC when all the Acela II's are online. Worse case 2 power cars become parts donors
for the rest of the active Acela I fleet.
No more worn out NJT Arrow III's on 1-2 round trip leases!

Backshophoss wrote:The Acela I's should become the holiday reserve fleet for the NEC when all the Acela II's are online. Worse case 2 power cars become parts donors
for the rest of the active Acela I fleet.
No more worn out NJT Arrow III's on 1-2 round trip leases!

Which is a grand idea if Amtrak owned them. Do they?

Their lack of traps makes them useless in low platform territory, so they’re basically limited for use on the NEC in the USA.
The best future chances would be for Pennsylvania to buy all 20 sets of them cheaply at scrap prices, and have Amtrak run them on Keystone service. If there are any low platforms left east of Harrisburg, Pemmsylvania could make them high platforms using the money saved buying them cheap. The extra sets they don’t need can be used as spare parts donors because Amtrak thinks these 20 year old cars are worn out, you’re going to need spare parts..

Acelas could be used to plug equipment shortages at the point they are scheduled to come off. Amfleet replacement hasn't happened yet. Perhaps Acela-2 service will be so popular that there will be a shortage. Are there add-on options for the Acela-2?

Believe when Amtrak and BBD settled the suit,Amtrak got the Acela I's outright,BBD kept the Hippo's.

Ron, AFAIK per the terms of their settlement Amtrak owns the HST sets and BBD owns the HHPs.

PennDOT plans to continue using Amtrak equipment for the Keystone Service, right? It’s in both their and Amtrak's interest to ask for AX-1s in semi-captive service, especially if they can shave off time in curves and hit 125 mph in places where the current service is only allowed 110.

mtuandrew wrote:Ron, AFAIK per the terms of their settlement Amtrak owns the HST sets and BBD owns the HHPs.

PennDOT plans to continue using Amtrak equipment for the Keystone Service, right? It’s in both their and Amtrak's interest to ask for AX-1s in semi-captive service, especially if they can shave off time in curves and hit 125 mph in places where the current service is only allowed 110.

Thanks for the clarification on who owns what. Pennsylvania relies on Amtrak equipment mainly because Amtrak has the available resources to provide them. Will they after they retire the Amfleets?
California, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri have already reached the point where they have found it cheaper to provide Amtrak the rolling stock, it will not be long before east coast states are faced with that decision as well. Will it be cheaper to provide the rolling stock or pay Amtrak larger subsidies to provide them? North Carolina has decided it would be cheaper to provide the rolling stock, what will others decide?