accident in Japan should make commuters think!

The accident in Japan should be a reminder to LIRR commuters of the things that could actually happen here on the LIRR or anywhere at anytime, but rarely happens here! The cause of the crash is not officially known yet, but excessive speed seems to be a possibility tied along with an inexperienced engineer at the controls. This is what I preach to so many people who feel that Engineers and Trainmen get paid too much for what we do, and that we have an easy job. This is why the LIRR has such an intensive training for all people who will be working directly with the movement of trains and is why we have such a great safety record over the many years that have passed. This is why we also have to learn the physical characteristics of the RR. It wouldn't matter if the engineer was on the property 1 month or 30 years, if you were properly trained, it shouldn't make a difference. The engineer in this case not only (might have) violated speed restrictions, but he also did not fully become aware of his surroundings, such as to be aware of where curves exist on the line that he was on. The last time the LIRR ever had an accident at this magnitude was back in the mid-1900's in Kew Gardens.

Commuters spend so much time complaining about the service, the cost, the lack of cars on their train, etc..., but not one of them acknowledges the fact that we get them to and from work safely EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, and not to mention that we are also the busiest Commuter RR in the country. I've said it many times before, I don't care if the train is 10 minutes or 1 hour late, if safety is going to be compromised at any point, the train is not moving! Simple! And I know of many Conductors who say the same exact thing. I don't know of anyone on the RR who purposely wants to cause injury or death to any person on-board or off the train, and that's why we follow rules, why we go through intensive training, and why sometimes we may delay a train purposely. It's not to make OT, it's to not hurt anyone. People should really take a good look at what happened in Japan, and compare that situation and place it here on our rails, can it happen? Sure, accidents do happen, but what are the chances that it will happen here when all employees working on the trains have to endure a similar and intesive training that is not truly applied at other RR's?

Bah, I put my faith in our US built heavyweight supertrains. Budd made them bullet proof, bomb proof and fixed object resistant.

mark,

Wouldn't the ASC make it impossible for excessive speed to be a factor in an accident here?

Well Said Mark,

I totally agree.

Let the commuters bosses read about what happened and next time the train is late they can cool off instead of get heated.

Lirr168 wrote:mark,

Wouldn't the ASC make it impossible for excessive speed to be a factor in an accident here?

Not to steal your reply Mark, but I'll take a stab at it, feel free to add anything if you wish!!
In some instances, yes, the ASC code will drop in relation to the speed restriction on a portion of track.
In other instances, the ASC code remains at MAS and your knowledge of the railroad charactaristics and speed restrictions is the only thing stopping you from going 80mph around a 30mph curve.

LIengineerBob:

Thanks, I didn't get back on time to answer this question.

Lirr168:

LIengineerBob pretty much said it all. The ASC will not drop down a code if there is a curve ahead. The ASC only reflects the condition of the block ahead, wether it is occupied by another train, or wether the next signal might be displaying a more restrictive aspect than clear. It won't tell you that there is a speed limit ahead due to a curve. At Queens interlocking, if the next block is clear, the ASC will read MAS, but the speed limit through that location is 60 MPH. Furthermore, once you are in 251 manual territory, (out east), there is no ASC and no signal system in place. We go by train orders, K-cards, etc.... and it's out here that you really need to know your stuff, because one small mistake can cause two trains to collide head on at 60 MPH! The ASC and signals are not the only things used to maintain safe operations of train movements, it's also the people who run them that are equally important if not essential!

mark and bob,

Thanks for the info! And btw, I think you're right about commuters not being appreciative of the LIRR's safety record; I'll admit I do get pissed if a train is really late, but in all honesty, arriving late is better than never arriving!

The news coverage has mentioned that in Japan it's apparently a priority to maintain exacting schedules and that a 2 minute delay would be considered serious in that system. So you wonder what they do there when say a medical emergency happens on their trains. Do they just throw a cardiac victim off the train and keep going so not to be a minute late or what? I could see where they might have fewer delays from mechanical problems than we do. Their equipment is probably better quality..........Does anyone here maybe know anything about Japanese railroads and their procedures?

Might questions regarding Japanese railways be better suited to the World Railfan forum?

-otto-

This is what LIRR commuters would want the LIRR to do. They should throw off people who have medical emergencies, and break rules when trains are running 2 minutes late. And there are your results when things are rushed, people die, people get hurt. I do believe that someone's life is a little more important than getting a train to it's destination on-time. Now if only we can get the commuters to see this, they would have a different outlook on what we do everyday. Newsday had the chance to say something about it, instead it simply spoke of the systems that are used to prevent this from happening here. No mention of the intense training and dedicated workers on the LIRR.

I know it's changing the subject a little but has anyone noticed the similarities between this wreck and the Malbone Street wreck:
*The operator in the Japan wreck was the same age as Anthony Luciano, 23 yrs old.
*Both were inexperienced. (Luciano was a scab during a strike who never drove a train before)
*Both operators overshot a previous station's platform.
*Both were trying to make up time.
*Both crashes were caused by excessive speed on a tight turn.[/list]

mark777 wrote:This is what LIRR commuters would want the LIRR to do. They should throw off people who have medical emergencies, and break rules when trains are running 2 minutes late.

Care to enlighten us as to why a sick person can't wait for medical help at a train station instead of on a train? Although I don't ride the LIRR, I do ride the subways (although not regularly any more). One area where I vehemently disagree is the policy of the MTA to hold a train in a station for often twenty minutes or more because of a sick passenger. You delay literally tens of thousands of people if this occurs during rush hour by doing so, and you're not doing a thing to get the sick person aid any faster. Why not have passengers or crew help (or even carry) the sick person off the train, call for help, and then have the station personnel remain with the sick person until help arrives? Exactly how is anything compromised by doing so? If anything the sick person can breathe better once they're off a crowded train. Delays for sick passengers might not have grated on my nerves so much when I used to ride the trains regularly if they weren't so frequent, didn't occur during rush hours, and most importantly didn't delay the train for often half an hour or more. It's one thing to leave yourself ten or fifteen minutes to account for normal slowness during rush hours, but quite another when you get to work late more often than not because of "sick passengers". The funny thing was I never saw these "sick passengers" when I got out of the train while it was waiting on the platform. I sometimes wonder if the "sick passenger" explanation was used by the MTA whenever they had an equipment malfunction.

Sorry if I may seem callous here, but one sure way to lose paying ridership (and eventually have no trains at all) is by not having reliable service. This is exactly the one big thing plaguing Amtrak right now, for example. Anyone taking the trains can understand and tolerate occasional lateness of a few minutes or less. However, when such lateness becomes a regular thing, especially if it can be minimized by a change in operating procedures, many will flock to alternate means of getting around. Realistically, nobody is going to give themselves half an hour extra to get to work, especially if the schedules are already padded (I can't speak as to whether LIRR schedules are padded, but I know Amtrak's are). When everyone who used to ride the trains starts driving instead because the trains are always late, you'll have way more fatalities than would have been produced by even downright reckless train operation.

As to the practice of "making up time" in Japan by running faster than normal if late, you need to understand that one train being only a minute late on a crowded line can cause delays of an hour or more by the time it propagates through the system. The problem here was that the driver didn't know the line (and IMO was too young to be running a train), not that he was making up time by "bending" a few rules. Any good, experienced driver can make up time in a safe and efficient manner if he/she knows the line well, often without even breaking any existing speed limits. Remember that schedules are usually at least 10% above minimum running time. You can make up a minute of lateness in as little as ten minutes. I'm all for doing so when it can be done without compromising safety. Point of fact is that the train in question here was going about 100 km/hr according to authorities, far short of the 133 km/hr which would have caused it to derail on the curve in question. Some evidence suggests a rock or other piece of debris may have been at fault. It would be ironic indeed if authorities determine that the train would have derailed even if it was at the speed limit.

Any transportation system needs to find a proper balance between safety and efficiency. IMHO, many operators in the US err too far on the side of safety, often running trains slower than they ran in the days of steam. In Japan the opposite may be the case, but the evidence isn't all in yet. Don't forget that the Shinkansens have yet to have an operational passenger fatality in over 40 years of operation. And to put this into perspective, the 91 dead so far is less than the 137 who die on an average day in the US from auto accidents. Auto fatalities are so common they don't even make the papers. It's saying a lot for railway safety that train wrecks, even ones with no deaths, always make the papers. If there's any one thing we can learn from this, it's to not turn an operator loose on a line they're not thoroughly familiar with. I can't find fault with the rigorous training the MTA puts their train operators through, only with certain operating procedures, especially the way sick passengers are dealt with.

Thats the problem with the american people and government.

Look at France and other Europian counries. Thoes governments promote passenger rail travel and its also much more sucessful there then it is here. is there any reason for this, all you can blame is out governemnt and states for this nonsence in rail travel. i dont see the french tgv's being recalled like the aclea, and when ther is a problem there is a salution.

we the american people are just digging the grave for this countury faster then ever. its time we press the stop button and think.

why is passenger rail feisable in other nations but not america?

What can we the government/people of america do to improve our passenger rail service?

what will we do when the roads are over corwed and not able to hold any more motor vehicles because ther are simply too many on a out dated HTS?

why does ametica always take the cheep or way out of things then gets screwed in the end?

are there really answers to some of these.
is this even acceptable, why don't we the people of the united states walk on or government using our many rights and say that this is total nonsence and we refuse to take it from you and we will remove you from office if you dont act now.

polititions will do anything to stay in office.

Can I suggest slowing down just a bit? <pun intended>

This whole thread is built on a "seems to be". They're still digging bodies out of the wreck... let's wait until some real evidence appears as to what happened before applying blame.

jtr1962: The LIRR often does exactly what you suggested. If you listen to channel 2, you often hear 204 asking the conductor if the person can be safely moved off the train to the platform so the train can proceed. And when possible they do it, and a crew member is left behind with the victim to await the arrival of medical aid. The LIRR is not as dumb as the public thinks they are.