Wisconsin Hiawatha (Service Talgos Upgrades Maintenance)

orulz wrote:I wonder - will Wisconsin be buying locomotives from Talgo as well? At $47 million for just 2 trainsets, I hope so? Or will these be pulled by Genesis/MPI power? I wish somebody... ANYBODY in the US would buy engines that match their coaches. Call me a heretic or whatever, but nothing looks as good as a matched trainset. The Talgo XXI diesel/hydraulic locomotive was quite good looking.

It's actually not that bad a price. If you figure, roughly speaking, that two Talgo cars are the equivalent of one regular coach, it works out to $3.35M per coach-equivalent, which is competitive with what California was planning to pay for its Prop 1B California Car order.

TomNelligan wrote:The assembly plant and its accompanying jobs and taxes have to be the key to this deal. The Chicago-Milwaukee line is (mostly) about as straight as any route on the Amtrak system, so the Talgo's speed advantage on curves won't offer much of an advantage over conventional equipment on a line where good ol' Amfleet could do 100+ mph if the track conditions permitted.

Agreed, although I think that Milwaukee-Madison has a few more curves. As I said before, I think this is a savvy move on the part of Wisconsin in terms of capturing first-mover advantage on Talgo construction. My one concern is that we not end up with 5 or 6 different types of equipment operating on short routes out of Chicago....

this is definitely unexpected news.... no one on my research team had any inclination that this deal was happening behind Wisconsin closed doors. It will be a nice addition to the Chicagoland area as we have had no real experimental equipment since the early 90s..

korax wrote:According to one of the articles, these trainsets will be pulled by "existing" locomotives.

Well looks like time to "raid" the Bear facility and confiscate a few of the remaining P40's or dare, shall I say it...... the Turboliners head end cars..(lol)

Very pleasant news! Now, let's get Minnesota and Illinois to contribute some money and fund a Twin Cities Hiawatha using Talgos.

David Benton wrote: If Anything , these showfra specs can be met with a reasonable weight car . 17 tons per axle , 34 tons percar ???

I'd think it's less - remember that every car has one axle, which gets shared between the two cars.

Being short and wide helps them out, here.

It'd be nice to see them use a Talgo-designed locomotive, though. The limiting factor on the existing ones in the US is the locomotives - the Talgo ones are designed for higher curve speeds than US locomotives are.

A few side advantages to Talgos are higher acceleration and easier boarding, especially if you put in 550mm platforms, they then effectively become level boarding, without the high level platform issues.

Talgo's one of the more innovative builders out there - I wouldn't be surprised if these cars would have the ability to accept a Talgo-designed locomotive at a later date, with no modification.

I don't think the order includes locomotives. WA has applied for 4 new Talgo trainsets with an estimated cost of $103.5 million (approx. $25.88 mil/trainset) and made a separate request for 18 new high speed locomotives ($97.9 mil total, @$5.44 mil). So, I think the arithmetic indicates that WI will be buying unpowered trainsets.

I guess the burning question is--with or without the fins?

There are really a lot of unanswered questions here; the biggest of course is whither the funding?

Local/FTA?
ARRA '09?
Omnibus spending; Federal and/or Local level?

Secondly, it appears that Talgo USA has a "hell on wheels" business plan; they seem ready to set up shop, both manufacture and maintenance, in whatever jurisdiction is willing to give them some business. If this Wisconsin initiative is to move forth (while obviously there is intent, I must question to what extent this represents at this time a "done deal"), there now means there will be an "off in the wilderness" maintenance facility for this equipment resulting in less operational efficiency.

To continue, if this equipment is funded (and Governor Doyle's press release is conveniently silent on this point) by Wisconsin's allocation of the "$8B for HSR" under ARRA '09, will there be sufficient "buy American' content to meet the Act's rather undefined provisions regarding such. Final assembly will of course be done in Wisconsin (Janesville?), but the running gear will be foreign sourced. Possibly US sourced raw materials such as aluminum for the car bodies could help, but could these bodies be fabricated here - ideally in Wisconsin.

Finally, while shiny new equipment will be backdrop for the photo ops, one must wonder what the farepaying public will be in for come five years of revenue service. As I recall from my one Talgo ride namely 1990 Irun to Madrid, no matter where one sat in the car, it was as if you were sitting atop the trucks. This equipment hardly seems suitable for the straightaway Chi-Milw run, but alas, politics are politics.

One thing I'd like to see is a variation of a color scheme. UP may not want a new Hiawatha to use a yellow/grey scheme. Perhaps a new orange/black/maroon scheme could be made?
would the Packers mind using a variation of the yellow/green colors?

Gilbert B Norman wrote:There are really a lot of unanswered questions here; the biggest of course is whither the funding?

It is all state money for the initial order: funding is from the $80M in state bonding authority that was set aside for Chicago-Madison rail several years ago. The option for an additional two trainsets would presumably be funded as part of Wisconsin's ARRA application for Milwaukee-Madison.

From the AP via the Chicago Tribune:

State officials hope to replace the existing cars with Talgo cars by 2011. Money for the new cars will come from bonding authority included in the last three state budgets, Doyle said.

"We've planned for this," Doyle said.

GWoodle wrote:One thing I'd like to see is a variation of a color scheme. UP may not want a new Hiawatha to use a yellow/grey scheme. Perhaps a new orange/black/maroon scheme could be made?
would the Packers mind using a variation of the yellow/green colors?

As Mr. Woodle suggests, how about this for a paint scheme?
http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picMILW186.jpg

Incidentially, the MILW's adoption of the UP Yellow and Gray came about during 1955 after they were awarded the interline handling of the UP "City" trains. There was even some talk of a MILW-UP merger during that era.

News reports seem to indicate that the first 2 trainsets are going to be paid for by WI bonds and ARRA will be asked to pay for trainsets 3 & 4, along with an extension to Madison.

Not everyone will love the new Talgo trains when they are put in service, but I'm sure that customer satisfaction ratings will be very high, especially compared to the existing Superliners. Cascades service consistently ranks in the top 5 of all Amtrak routes and I find the ride to be very comfortable for my several annual trips between Seattle and Portland or Bellingham. Riders may hear more of the switches and cross-overs, but the ride is generally smooth and there's distinctly less swaying when compared to an Amfleet or Superliner. I doubt the Talgo Hiawathas will be "gone in 5 years".

Vincent wrote:News reports seem to indicate that the first 2 trainsets are going to be paid for by WI bonds and ARRA will be asked to pay for trainsets 3 & 4, along with an extension to Madison.

Not everyone will love the new Talgo trains when they are put in service, but I'm sure that customer satisfaction ratings will be very high, especially compared to the existing Superliners. Cascades service consistently ranks in the top 5 of all Amtrak routes and I find the ride to be very comfortable for my several annual trips between Seattle and Portland or Bellingham. Riders may hear more of the switches and cross-overs, but the ride is generally smooth and there's distinctly less swaying when compared to an Amfleet or Superliner. I doubt the Talgo Hiawathas will be "gone in 5 years".

Presumably this would replace the existing Horizon equipment. I've never been on a Talgo but I can't imagine it's not a significant upgrade from a Horizon coach. Heck, most anything would be.

Does anyone know if Amtrak ever co-mingles Hiawatha train sets with other Midwest corridor runs? I imagine that wouldn't happen after this new equipment arrives.

MudLake wrote: Presumably this would replace the existing Horizon equipment. I've never been on a Talgo but I can't imagine it's not a significant upgrade from a Horizon coach. Heck, most anything would be.

Does anyone know if Amtrak ever co-mingles Hiawatha train sets with other Midwest corridor runs? I imagine that wouldn't happen after this new equipment arrives.

There will be no co-mingling of cars with the Talgo sets in place. Although the consists can be altered (adding or deleting cars), it is not all that simple to do, so the Talgo consists are generally fixed.

Personally, I am happy to see Talgo being so aggressive with their marketing. If this country is ever to seriously build a reliable passenger rail network, it is going to take public/private partnerships to get it done. The states seem to be taking the lead right now, but at some point, there will definitely need to be more cooperation between the states if there are to be true "regional" corridors built. I look forward to frequent service within the corridors, with those corridors tied together using long distance trains.

warren1949 wrote:

MudLake wrote: Presumably this would replace the existing Horizon equipment. I've never been on a Talgo but I can't imagine it's not a significant upgrade from a Horizon coach. Heck, most anything would be.

Does anyone know if Amtrak ever co-mingles Hiawatha train sets with other Midwest corridor runs? I imagine that wouldn't happen after this new equipment arrives.

There will be no co-mingling of cars with the Talgo sets in place. Although the consists can be altered (adding or deleting cars), it is not all that simple to do, so the Talgo consists are generally fixed.

Personally, I am happy to see Talgo being so aggressive with their marketing. If this country is ever to seriously build a reliable passenger rail network, it is going to take public/private partnerships to get it done. The states seem to be taking the lead right now, but at some point, there will definitely need to be more cooperation between the states if there are to be true "regional" corridors built. I look forward to frequent service within the corridors, with those corridors tied together using long distance trains.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the cars are co-mingled but rather the whole train sets. For example, there have been a scattering of posts claiming that a Lincoln Service train set may end up in Detroit/Pontiac at times.

Currently, are any train sets used for Hiawatha service that are also used elsewhere?

Gilbert B Norman wrote:There are really a lot of unanswered questions here; the biggest of course is whither the funding?

Secondly, it appears that Talgo USA has a "hell on wheels" business plan; they seem ready to set up shop, both manufacture and maintenance, in whatever jurisdiction is willing to give them some business. If this Wisconsin initiative is to move forth (while obviously there is intent, I must question to what extent this represents at this time a "done deal"), there now means there will be an "off in the wilderness" maintenance facility for this equipment resulting in less operational efficiency.

Now that we have the funding issue attained a certain matter at hand still exists and this I agree with you Mr. Gilbert in the question of where will this equipment be Maintained? As history has shown Buying Equipment of any kind is only Half the cost, Maintenance is the other. Who will pick up the bill, will it be an agreement similar to Amtrak California? Or will this be totally on Amtraks dime and expectant maintenance after there term agreement (first five years or so) to be carried out @ Chicago or heavens forbid Beech Grove. If Talgo is setting up A division of there own as there planning a concurrent manufacturing & assembly plant. Will Maintenance & service for these sets be there as well after term agreements, who will be expected to pay for that? WISDOT or Amtrak? Will this be a kind of " we buy it but you operate it at your cost deal", there are still a lot of unanswered questions Id like to see addressed before a news story like this is released, especially form the states and its Governor. That $80 million will only stretch so far and ARRA 09 funding currently is not a guaranteed for WISDOT.

Don't get me wrong Im for the Idea of Talgos in the Midwest even if short lived at best, as I may finally have the opportunity to travel on one without traveling to the far western side of the United states. However under further consideration certain question arise that I feel should have been previously addressed in media releases. The above being a portion of them.

Edit I MUST SAY: Look out Bombardier and Kawasaki.....TALGO is moving into the building!

A couple of other board members could answer this definitively, but in recent years I believe that two trainsets have been used to cover all of the Hiawathas. Along with the Pere Marquette and the Hoosier State, the Hiawathas are the only Chicago Hub trains with no food service cars, so it would be difficult to share sets with the other routes. This should eventually free up 10 coaches.