Will SEPTA drive business to the RiverLINE?

I have just read the SEPTA "doomsday" fare proposal, and I was [not very] shocked at what SEPTA will charge for fares to Trenton: can you believe that SEPTA will charge 9 BUCKS for a one-way trip to Trenton at ALL times? And the round-trip will cost $16.50. Now compare this to the fares using NJT Bus and the RiverLINE [$3.70 round trip] and the PATCO Line/RiverLINE [$4.60 round trip]. Now anyone with half a brain will do the math, and realize the INCREDIBLE savings by going through Camden.

I have noticed a lot of people from the Center-City area using the PATCO/RiverLINE connection, and a few doing the NJT bus-RiverLINE connection as well, now add the fact that the RiverLINE runs more frequently that the R7 [with better connections to the NEC Line than the R7], and SEPTA will have a BIG problem, especially if they go through with the "doomsday" scenario. I have told friends that live in Center City that the PATCO/RiverLINE connection is much better and cheaper than walking to Suburban Station and waiting forever for a SEPTA train.

I also plan to try to talk to reporters from the Philadelphia Weekly, and the City Paper and introduce them to this DIRT CHEAP alternative to the [present and future] ripoff SEPTA fares.

Pretty soon, Amtrak will be more cost effective.

Mdlbigcat wrote:Now anyone with half a brain will do the math, and realize the INCREDIBLE savings by going through Camden.

I have noticed a lot of people from the Center-City area using the PATCO/RiverLINE connection, and a few doing the NJT bus-RiverLINE connection as well,

Ahh, that reinforces my 2nd favorite "Sim-City" idea:

Run the Riverline over the Ben Franklin Bridge on the aerial PATCO tracks and open a terminal in the old trolley station under Franklin Square.

The NJT Riverline is a standard gauge diesel so all it would take would be a connecting track at grade in Camden-

A couple times now, I've seen the PATCO trains shuttling back and forth over the Ben Franklin Bridge on the south track - trains to and from Philly both using the track on the same side (I assume while they do rehabwork on the other side) so PATCO can work with just one track...

So, why not make this really usefull to 99% of people and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to PATCO, and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to the Riverline.

FYI, the 1st favorite Sim-City idea is to convince AMTRAK to route trains through the Center City Commuter Tunnel so that Market East with the attached Convention Center become Amtrak stops. That WOULD make things much easier for people arriving in Center City, they could actually walk to a hotel on a nice day, and use the old Ed Bacon concourse in foul weather to get between Market East and the major downtown hotels that serve the convention center.

Hal

Would be nice to see Amtrak at ME, but only trains its practical for is the Keystone, and that only would happen if it became a PHL-HAR service only.

I still think it would have been nice to have had Amtrak take over the LD services on the old RDG lines. Wouldn't have worked with the tunnel, but would have given us a reason to keep Reading Terminal.

By the way, if you guys have a chance, check out ReadingViaduct.org. Its a group trying to save the viaduct, and turn it into a park. Good idea, but every time I drive by Spring Garden Station, with the catenary still hanging, I wish I could hop on a train and head to NY or something. Hec of alot easier than going to 30th Street.

If price were the only factor, people would be riding the Route 100 & transferring to the MFSE instead of taking the R5. The Route 100 (aka P&W) roughly parallels the R5 Paoli up to Radnor, and is about as fast even taking into account the transfer time to the MSFE, yet the R5 parking lots fill up while the Route 100 lots are mostly empty.

Amtrak, Commuter rail and light rail each offer different levels of service at different prices, and I don't think there will be many people crossing over just to save a few bucks. What may happen is more people will drive up to Trenton instead of taking SEPTA.

Hal wrote: A couple times now, I've seen the PATCO trains shuttling back and forth over the Ben Franklin Bridge on the south track - trains to and from Philly both using the track on the same side (I assume while they do rehabwork on the other side) so PATCO can work with just one track...

So, why not make this really usefull to 99% of people and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to PATCO, and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to the Riverline.Hal

PATCO can't operate its rush hour schedule over the Ben Franklin bridge on one track.

The whole Septa transfer at Trenton to me is now getting played out in the first place, not just the possible fare hike, but other things like clenliness, frequency, and lateness if I'm not mistaken. If the price isn't worth it, then I am not paying so much. Look at Metro North on the other hand, even though their prices might be high, they know how to run a railroad, especially on the ex-NH main, and the new third track between Fleetwood, and Crestwood that will enable more service points north and even more super expresses to W.Ps. Anyway, getting back to the Septa R7 Trenton Line, when I go to PHL, especially the center city part closer to the Delaware, I will take the River Line to Patco. Believe me, the River Line has a "commuter train" flavor to it for the most part. Don't forget the fare. Also, the frequency is multiple runs in an hour for the most part. The only downside is Conrail's Shared Assets shutting it down between 36th St and Trenton not so late on most days. I think it might not be a bad idea to add another track in open areas that are currently single.

I can see this really being the case only if SEPTA's Armageddon budget goes into effect, shutting down R-7 service on weekends and curtailing it by 20% on weekdays. I would expect a big jump in River LINE ridership under that scenario. Heck, NJT could easily mix in some expresses or skip-stop service between Trenton and Camden if it wished.

There is another alternative to SEPTA's curtailing the R-7 ---- have NJT run past Trenton to CCP.
NJT runs the 30th Street to Atlantic City service, which goes between the two states, and there is talk of having NJT take over Amtrak's Clockers between CCP and NYP.
NJT could run an hourly NEC-to-Philly service, and there would be a market there to replace a portion of the R-7. (The remainder of the R-7 to Chestnut Hill East is redundant with the R-8 to Chestnut Hill West and could use some other weekend service under the doomsday proposal).

The River Line is an attractive alternative because it runs more frequently than the R-7, but better coordination (on weekends) should be made between PATCO and the River Line. [Unless NJT could advertise the RiverLine to NJT bus connection better].

Last month, I bought the combo RL-to-bus ticket in error, but didn't know how to transfer (and the ticket said INTRAstate), so used PATCO anyway.

I think that the people will still pay more for the convience factors rather than the price factors. I mean c'mon, you have to get up and get on three just to go from New York to Philadelphia via Camden. First of all, the RiverLINE schedule doesn't quite maatchup with an inbound NJT Train at Trenton. For example, a Trenton-bound is set to arrive at 11:33 AM in Trenton. The SEPTA Connection is waiting on track 5 at 11:40, but the SEPTA train will be held in the station for the NJT train. While, on the other hand, the RiverLINE will depart at 11:45, but if the 11:33 Trenton-bound i late for 5 or 10 minutes and you have to buy the RiverLINE ticket with those slow printers, you could have the possibility of missing the train and waiting for another one. Hey, I'm just giving the pros an cons, I would never dare to tell you how to spend your hard earn dollar.

I think that the people will still pay more for the convience factors rather than the price factors. I mean c'mon, you have to get up and get on three just to go from New York to Philadelphia via Camden. First of all, the RiverLINE schedule doesn't quite maatchup with an inbound NJT Train at Trenton. For example, a Trenton-bound is set to arrive at 11:33 AM in Trenton. The SEPTA Connection is waiting on track 5 at 11:40, but the SEPTA train will be held in the station for the NJT train. While, on the other hand, the RiverLINE will depart at 11:45, but if the 11:33 Trenton-bound i late for 5 or 10 minutes and you have to buy the RiverLINE ticket with those slow printers, you could have the possibility of missing the train and waiting for another one. Hey, I'm just giving the pros an cons, I would never dare to tell you how to spend your hard earn dollar.

I think that the people will still pay more for the convience factors rather than the price factors. I mean c'mon, you have to get up and get on three just to go from New York to Philadelphia via Camden. First of all, the RiverLINE schedule doesn't quite maatchup with an inbound NJT Train at Trenton. For example, a Trenton-bound is set to arrive at 11:33 AM in Trenton. The SEPTA Connection is waiting on track 5 at 11:40, but the SEPTA train will be held in the station for the NJT train. While, on the other hand, the RiverLINE will depart at 11:45, but if the 11:33 Trenton-bound i late for 5 or 10 minutes and you have to buy the RiverLINE ticket with those slow printers, you could have the possibility of missing the train and waiting for another one. Hey, I'm just giving the pros an cons, I would never dare to tell you how to spend your hard earn dollar.

There is another alternative to SEPTA's curtailing the R-7 ---- have NJT run past Trenton to CCP.
NJT runs the 30th Street to Atlantic City service, which goes between the two states, and there is talk of having NJT take over Amtrak's Clockers between CCP and NYP.
NJT could run an hourly NEC-to-Philly service, and there would be a market there to replace a portion of the R-7. (The remainder of the R-7 to Chestnut Hill East is redundant with the R-8 to Chestnut Hill West and could use some other weekend service under the doomsday proposal).

Clockers are due to to be taken over by NJT on January 1, 2006. Rumor mill is saying NJT will trim Clocker service to NY-Trenton only.

I've heard this also.

Hal wrote: Run the Riverline over the Ben Franklin Bridge on the aerial PATCO tracks and open a terminal in the old trolley station under Franklin Square.

The NJT Riverline is a standard gauge diesel so all it would take would be a connecting track at grade in Camden-

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So, why not make this really usefull to 99% of people and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to PATCO, and dedicate 1 track on the BF Bridge to the Riverline.

The RiverLine currently terminates south of the BF Bridge after running street level, and connecting with PATCO at the transit center. To reroute over the bridge would require a northbound double-back and a duplication of service (unless RL abandons service south of the bridge).

Also, Franklin Square is an unused subway station from the old "Bridge Line" and has a ghost branch for the Ridge spur. It's unlikely that the station will ever be reopened simply because there's nothing there anymore.

I'd like to see a better connection between PATCO and 30th St station though. Right now, you need to transfer to SEPTA, or double back to Lindenwold for the ACL.