Why Not NJT Rail Purchase NEC? Fantasy Railroading

Maybe it's time for NJT to pony up and purchase the NEC from Amtrak. Just buy it. From Morrisville to the east end of the North River Tunnels.

No more moaning and groaning about the Bush (or Clinton, or Reagan, or Carter) administration shortchanging Amtrak. NJT is paying so much for the maintenance, and getting so little from Amtrak, maybe it's time to turn the tables.

Acela 2166, hold at WOOD while we run the Jersey Ave local around you. You'll be moving in just a few minutes (heh, heh).

With the huge fees and Amtrak gouging NJT, NJT could prob pay off the bonds out of the maintenance money it's paying Amtrak. Let Amtrak pay rent to NJT, or find its trains backed up from TRENT to GRUNDY.

Train 191, you're holding up three trains. Accept the signal at NASSAU and take the Princeton Branch while we run three NJT trains around you. Have you brakeman walk back up the main to flag you out in a half hour or so.

Wouldn't work as nicely as you think.

Look at the segment of the NEC from Shell (Pelham NY) to New Haven, owned by ConnDOT and Metro-North. No ACSES, top speed 70 mph if you're lucky. Care to hazard a guess of what top speed on a "Shirley-timed" NEC would be?? Sure won't be 100 mph.

And you would prefer to delay fast Amtrak trains just to benefit NJT? You give impetus to anti-rail voices in that case, and make the NEC look like Amtrak's operations around the rest of the country, not to mention handing the corridor rail business over to the airlines.

How about pressuring Congress for better funding for Amtrak instead? That way, these awful "huge fees" you speak of can be curtailed, the NEC can be upgraded even further, and both railroads can benefit.

Don't dare say "no more moaning" about Washington not funding Amtrak adequately. You are falling into the Bush Administration's trap. No more fast trains is more like it. Of course NJT is "getting so little" from Amtrak, because Amtrak doesn't have it to give.

Fantasy railroading? More like a nightmare.

^The NEC is Amtrak's most valuable commodity. To sell that would not be a good thing for them and for us. Selling from Trenton/Phil to NY to NJT and selling other parts of it to other railroads would probably kill having direct service from Boston to Washington. I think the NEC service works out just fine for NJT as is and I hope Amtrak is able to continues standing on its own two feet more or less.

I used to call Amtrak "Amtrash" and criticize them for moaning. The fact is for the funding Amtrak gets to operate across the whole country, they are doing pretty good all things considered. But it isn't nearly enough.

I am STRONGLY against Amtrak privatization. The NEC is Amtrak's lifeline, the only 24-hour/7 operation with frequent service and a "true" main line. If the Feds privatize Amtrak, I predict chaos—look at British Rail.

I don't think that NJT necessarily needs to buy NEC but I think there is room for more of a "Joint venture", though AMTRAK would likely need to be forced into it.

What I mean is that, probably in return for increased funding from NJT, the NEC be run jointly by AMTRAK and NJT. This would give NJT a fairer deal (local trains should give priority to Acela but rush hour NJT trains should have priority over other AMTRAK trains. Also, it would allow NJT to run the NEC alone if something happened to AMTRAK in the future.

Interestingly the new Hudson River tunnel would be a NJT project and in its master plan AMTRAK says that NJT would contribute to the rebuilding of the Portal Bridge as a 4 track high level bridge so I think we are heading in the direction of some kind of joint control.

Privatization of Amtrak is an oximoron. IMHO the only real solution to all of this is to adequately fund Amtrak.--- Period.

NJT riders should thank their lucky stars that NJT doesn't own the NEC. Aside from the expense, NJ-ARP put out a note a couple of years ago (I forget who actually said this) where an NJT official admitted to NJ-ARP that, if they ran the NEC, it would most likely be a 2-track, 80MPH railroad. Since the only meaning of the word "speed" that NJT seems to recognize is an illegal drug, be careful what you wish for.

Some are also forgetting that not only NJT provides commuter service to NYP on the NEC.

There are plenty of commuters (like me) from Philadelphia and even Wilmington, DE who rely on AMTRAK service to get to and from work each day.

JoeG wrote:NJT riders should thank their lucky stars that NJT doesn't own the NEC. Aside from the expense, NJ-ARP put out a note a couple of years ago (I forget who actually said this) where an NJT official admitted to NJ-ARP that, if they ran the NEC, it would most likely be a 2-track, 80MPH railroad. Since the only meaning of the word "speed" that NJT seems to recognize is an illegal drug, be careful what you wish for.

That's a good point.

I don't think that its a good idea for any of the commuter or transit agencies which operate on part of the NEC to make such a purchase. If they did, south of NYC you would have part of the railroad owned by NJT, SEPTA, and MARC, separately ( just to list the primary agencies in that area) each with its own priorities, political and management problems, etc. etc. etc. This is a sure recipe for serious confusion, and would probably mark the end of any meaningful intercity rail service between DC and Boston.

7 Train wrote:If the Feds privatize Amtrak, I predict chaos—look at British Rail

Funny you mention that. BR is in essence making a "comeback" as National Rail (note that they use the same symbol/logo as BR); the Strategic Rail Authority is being dismantled entirely. Network Rail has been authorized to dump £5 billion per year for the next five years into Britain's rail infrastructure in order to renew it (that's $9.25 billion in US currency at the time of writing). Certainly an overdue lesson as to how Congress should be treating Amtrak, not to mention every other commuter railroad—and freight road—in the country.

All of the posts onthis topic have been very thoughtful. The bottom line is that AMTRAK needs adequate funding. Period. Truckers have been subsidized since the 1950s (Interstate Highway System), now its time to level the playing field.

Don31 wrote:All of the posts onthis topic have been very thoughtful. The bottom line is that AMTRAK needs adequate funding. Period. Truckers have been subsidized since the 1950s (Interstate Highway System), now its time to level the playing field.

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No argument about that. The argument is HOW Amtrak spends / wastes that money. Designing Tilt cars that are five inches too wide to tilt, dumping $billions (who really knows) of EXTRA epense into the New England electric project, mismanaging the Acela Express equipment distribution, etc.

I'd argue that the very best part of the NEC right now is the segment from SHELL to New Haven, the part owned by CDOT and operated by MetroNorth.

There's a thoughtful article in today's (Tuesday's) NY Times about Amtrak's unwillingness to even discuss the distribution of revenues and expenses along product lines, although one Amtrak executive mentioned the Sunset route (alone) loses $50mn per year. That would update a few miles of the NEC all by itself

I would not worry bout NJT running the NEC, they can't even find Philladelphia on schedule for their clockers

The argument is HOW Amtrak spends / wastes that money. Designing Tilt cars that are five inches too wide to tilt, dumping $billions (who really knows) of EXTRA epense into the New England electric project, mismanaging the Acela Express equipment distribution, etc

There is a missing dimension to that, namely the fact that Congress stiffed Amtrak for some $2.8 billion to complete the project. I cannot speak to whether or not any financial assistance would have gone to Metro-North or ConnDOT to help widen the ROW if Amtrak had gotten that money, nor whether or not SHELL would have been reconfigured with the proposed flyovers.

Nonetheless, the Acela project woes really have no bearing on the former PRR. The AE can tilt just fine where NJT runs. Please do not pull us off-topic. Also, remember that Congress appoints the Amtrak officers, so if ill effects happen during a certain ED's tenure, they were commanded from above.

I'd argue that the very best part of the NEC right now is the segment from SHELL to New Haven, the part owned by CDOT and operated by MetroNorth

On what basis? It's far slower than the former PRR. The track centers are not sufficiently wide to permit Acela Express—or any other tilt train—to tilt. Track capacity has been lost at its eastern end. No signal system to allow higher operating speeds.

There's a thoughtful article in today's (Tuesday's) NY Times about Amtrak's unwillingness to even discuss the distribution of revenues and expenses along product lines, although one Amtrak executive mentioned the Sunset route (alone) loses $50mn per year. That would update a few miles of the NEC all by itself

Amtrak publishes financial reports on its web site. Like any corporation, however, they are not required to discuss information that is proprietary.

If you want to argue more things Amtrak, then go to the Amtrak forum and a lot of issues will be clarified.