Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

The demand might be there for WCU students. Right now it's a pain in the rear, so I hear, for them to get home during breaks by train. I'm not from the area so I don't know specifics but I hear it involves having someone give them a ride to Malvern.

Yes, but the old WCU station is so close to the terminus (looks like a half mile or so), are both necessary?

Did the West Chester line go further than the old terminal downtown? I'd like to look on Google maps for the old ROW

wzlirr wrote:Did the West Chester line go further than the old terminal downtown? I'd like to look on Google maps for the old ROW

The West Chester branch always ran to West Chester, but there was a branch that came in at the end of the line in West Chester that ran to Frazer on the PRR Main Line. I believe that branch was abandoned in the 1960's and at the current "Frazer"interlocking on Amtrak's Harrisburg Line is where the Frazer branch came off to go to West Chester.

The branch was indeed abandoned in the 1960s, and tied in where 352 passes under the main line at Frazer.

And for wzlirr, the line went north out of town along Maple Avenue, with stations at Fern Hill, Green Hill, Kirkland, Morstein, and Immaculata.

wzlirr wrote:Did the West Chester line go further than the old terminal downtown? I'd like to look on Google maps for the old ROW

Alex presented a map of it a while ago. I saved it in my bookmarks.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl ... fe=on&z=12

An unplanned pic of the old ROW from a relative's neighbor's backyard near Immaculata.

I think many of the people posting don't know the key reason to expand regional rail service to West Chester.

1. Bus Rt 104 provides customers service from 69th Street terminal to West Chester Transportation Center (Septa's new eight story parking garage). It is rapidly growing, and has extremely heavy traffic. Busses run every five minutes, and is one of Septa's most populated lines. Every day they increase the service, and it is extremely inefficient, recovering only 30% of operating costs. It is also very slow and inconvenient for students from West Chester University.

2. The Borough of West Chester just reached the population large enough to be considered a city.

3. West Chester houses a large university, the county seat, three high schools as well as many private schools, a night life, many large corporations, and a major regional trauma center.

I'm 14 years old, and I'm really angry they are only expanding service to Wawa. I would be more then happy if they installed buttons at small shelters throughout the entire single track line and ran Diesel Trolley busses operating as a shuttle service. And on top of that, Septa wants to grant trail rights past Wawa. What can we do as railfans to help expand service?

askclifford wrote:I'm 14 years old, and I'm really angry they are only expanding service to Wawa. I would be more then happy if they installed buttons at small shelters throughout the entire single track line and ran Diesel Trolley busses operating as a shuttle service. And on top of that, Septa wants to grant trail rights past Wawa. What can we do as railfans to help expand service?

Petition your local government would be the first step. You'll have a lot more weight with them if you're a resident of West Chester, Westtown, or Glen Mills. Being that you're only 14, you're not a voter yet, so I'm not sure how serious they'll take you- often they don't even take the voters seriously. Do try, though- you'll never know until you do. I'd also say try to reach out to others who share the same goal or try to start a small group of your own. Pressure SEPTA as much as you can, but also expect the same "it can't be done for reasons A, B, C, and D" kind of answers. The unfortunate reality for the time being though, is that money is the killer right now. No project, including West Chester, will be funded any time soon.

Again, do whatever you can. I'm all for supporting political action.

Hi Clifford, and welcome aboard.

You've got a good question, and we heard an answer from the Chester County Planning Commission at this month's CAC Railroad Subcommittee meeting. The planning study for the Wawa extension did consider going all the way to West Chester, but it was not deemed cost-effective. The great majority of riders who would be in the area served by that extension would still have a faster trip to Philadelphia on the Paoli/Thorndale line, even though the distance to the station is longer.

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Although it would not be cost effective short term, it definitely would be long term and would be cheaper then busses. It would also be more convenient for the 15,000 WCU Students who would much rather hop on a bus in front of their school then drive to Exton (I am a Chester County Resident, a block away from the Paoli Thorndale Line). It would be super cool if West Chester Railroad could start operating commercially and providing daily service from Wawa to West Chester, but I don't see that happening soon.

Hadn't been on the ground west of Elwyn for a decade; so I made a quick motor tour of the line one morning last week. I want to do it again, but some observations and very tentative conclusions are:

1. Track and overhead are intact, the former is good enough for the ballast trains from South Elwyn to Glen Riddle. No embankment repairs needed; catenary hangs limp through the station area, which is now effectively inaccessible by car. As a stop, it would have to depend on walk-ins from apartment houses which crowd the right of way. Could it generate the necessary 75 walk-in weekday boardings? I'm doubtful.

2. Looking west from the Pennell Road bridge, the catenary ends. Beyond that, a huge mound of ballast fill now carries a rebuilt single track roadbed and track. Old or new catenary bracket arms for single track extend westward. No catenary.

3. At Lenni, there's another rebuilt single track roadbed east and west of the traditional station area, which still retains its old lollypop sign at the Lenni Road crossing. Empty new catenary brack arm poles continue around the curve out of sight toward the SEPTA "Lenni Shop" sanctuary, a filled-in one time quarry. Didn't check that out (a SEPTA contractor's vehicle was buzzing around).

It would appear that at least 50 parking spaces could be placed on vacant land right around Lenni station, many more going toward the shop site. No potential-NIMBY homes within 100 yards or so. The track level is well above the Chester Creek at this point; no possible flooding. Although pathfinder signs would be needed, it's not hard to get off route 1 to the Lenni station site. Also, nearby Smith Bridge Road and Foulke Road go easily well back into the semi-suburban PA/DE hinterland for this station.

4. By contrast, the Wawa site is a poor one for a MAJOR station site, probably adopted because the line crosses route 1 on the map at this point (easy SEPTA route 111 JARC bus interchange). Unlike a decade ago, the area appears overgrown. The track is closer to creek level than at Lenni, and the ground to be used for parking is still lower (hence the costly garage?). An oxbow of the creek flows through this area, and that makes for more complexity and cost to build around.

So I'm beginning to think Lenni would be more suitable than Wawa as a TEMPORARY terminus, as someone earlier in this thread suggested. Most of the necessities are now in place since the line was reopened for the Amtrak ballast trains.

Also agree that the Octoraro Line needs to be safeguarded, at least as rail-with-trail. Yesterday at DVRPC, I saw an official map that designated it as "Octorara Trail" (sic).

I think it should be operated simply as a shuttle service, like every 1.5 hrs. That way costs are kept down and it would be acceptable to have just about 75 boardings per stop. I think if they installed a station on every other former station, they would exceed the 75 persons. Sometimes I'm doubtful if some of the small stations like Whitford on the R5 get enough boardings, but apparently they do. Did you actually drive on the tracks?

wzlirr wrote:Did the West Chester line go further than the old terminal downtown? I'd like to look on Google maps for the old ROW

At least as far back as the early 1950's, it did not. The terminus back then was on at the south side of Market just east of Matlack Street. At one time, there was a moderately large station there, but it was torn down in the middle-late 1950's. I remember that back during that time, the PRR actually stored five or six MP54 cars there for rush hour runs into Philly. It doesn't appear that the catenary ever went north of Market Street. One other thing--- prior to the middle 1950's service on that line was through service from WC to Suburban Station. In the middle 1950's, service was cut at Media and required a change of trains at Media if a ride into Philly was desired. Some through service ( approximately two trains per day in each direction) was restored in the 1960's, but there was always a wide disparity in the ridership between Philly and Media and between Media and West Chester. Rush hour trains between Philly and Media were as long as 14 cars long--- between Media & West Chester trains were never more than two cars in length, and two car trains were used because the PRR did not believe that MP 54's could be safely operated as single units in revenue service because of inadequate braking in the single units--- there were rarely enough passengers to fill even two cars.

cpontani wrote:Yes, but the old WCU station is so close to the terminus (looks like a half mile or so), are both necessary?

I haven't seen the ROW so I can't know for sure, but very few people will walk a half mile to get to a train station. But, then again, look at both Temple and Swarthmore, both of which require about a 1/8 mile walk to get to the station.