Why is there no direct Toronto to Quebec City service?

I've always wondered, so I might as well as:

Why does it require a change of trains in Montreal to get to Quebec City from Ottawa or Toronto? I can't imagine any current operational reason why there isn't single seat service from the west through Montreal to Quebec City?

Per Via schedules, Toronto to Quebec is a very long trip. Toronto to Montreal are around 4 hours 30 minutes, and Montreal to Quebec are around 3 hours 30 minutes. The total would be 8 hours, and that's not including a prolong stop in Montreal.

Eight hours is a very long trip in coach class car. Many passengers would get extremely hungry. Via doesn't have that many food service cars.
Via has 3 Renaissance Dining cars used exclusively on the Ocean with 48 seats and a kitchen.

Via also has 20 Renaissance Service cars


Via has 26 LRC Club/Business class cars aren't setup well for feeding passengers.


Via has 13 Budd Dining cars with 48 seats and a kitchen


Via has 16 Budd Skyline Lounge cars with 24 seats in the dining room galley, snack bar, lounge, and 24 seats in the second floor dome.


Since Via runs mostly LRC cars from Toronto towards Montreal, there aren't many food service cars available for an extended run to Quebec. It's a sad state to find that the oldest Via equipment is in far better shape at serving food than their newest......

electricron wrote:Per Via schedules, Toronto to Quebec is a very long trip. Toronto to Montreal are around 4 hours 30 minutes, and Montreal to Quebec are around 3 hours 30 minutes. The total would be 8 hours, and that's not including a prolong stop in Montreal.

Eight hours is a very long trip in coach class car. Many passengers would get extremely hungry. Via doesn't have that many food service cars.

Since Via runs mostly LRC cars from Toronto towards Montreal, there aren't many food service cars available for an extended run to Quebec. It's a sad state to find that the oldest Via equipment is in far better shape at serving food than their newest......

Actually, I was looking for operational and labor relations reasons why there isn't any direct Toronto to Quebec City service without changing trains in Montreal.

I'm well aware of VIA's food service, which on corridor trains take the forms of an airline-style cart. Oddly, a Renaissance service car is available some trains, but is reserved for Business class travelers. I would think that coach, or should I say "economy" class passengers would be eager to patronize any food service car, but I can only assume that the car is reserved for business class because of the horribly limited seating capacity and the lack of any other amenities to justify the extra fare.

Still, I'm very much certain that food service is the not the reason why VIA doesn't run through service to Quebec City.

So, why doesn't VIA run single seat service between Toronto and Quebec City?

Unfortunately, Montreal Central station was built as a terminal station. After passengers are taken off an incoming train, it has to be backed off to Pointe-St-Charles to be turned, and it then backs off to the station again to take new passengers for the return trip. That operation is never done with passengers aboard the trains. In order for trains from Toronto to go directly to Quebec City, they would either have to take Victoria bridge without stopping in Montreal, or a new station would have to be built in Pointe-Saint-Charles. In the latter case though, that station would be in the middle of nowhere, too far from downtown!

TrainDuNord wrote:Unfortunately, Montreal Central station was built as a terminal station. After passengers are taken off an incoming train, it has to be backed off to Pointe-St-Charles to be turned, and it then backs off to the station again to take new passengers for the return trip. That operation is never done with passengers aboard the trains. In order for trains from Toronto to go directly to Quebec City, they would either have to take Victoria bridge without stopping in Montreal, or a new station would have to be built in Pointe-Saint-Charles. In the latter case though, that station would be in the middle of nowhere, too far from downtown!

I liked your answer far better than mine.....

But, couldn't Via just back and turn the locomotive, re-connecting the locomotive on the opposite end?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ntrale.gif

I'm sure that maneuver would take some time, but it isn't impossible....

Well I guess I might as well let the cat out of the bag, I did say Id post later on but guess I might as well get this started now. Unofficially VIA is looking into direct service form Windsor to Quebec city, (through Toronto and Montreal). Its still too early to tell, as my sources do work for VIA rail but are not high up on the totem pole, so this is as of now hear say buzzing in the VIA camp. The confirmed information I can report is VIA's looking into launch Renaissance cars on the Toronto-Windsor route, but as we all know the cars just are not as reliable for winter use as we would have hopped. I believe once that is worked out we may just see a through train for the corridor 1 ticket, 1 seat, 1 train, each direction everyday. seeing as the trip would roughly take 12 hrs from end to end Im speculating a 8 am departure form each directions end point which would have both trains arrive respectably around 8 pm. A long trip none the less however no need for a sleeper service as it can be completed in half a day.

But the dilemma I see as many others will, is the need for a food service car? This made me think about the renaissance cars VIA's slated to scrap. Also would this train still have a separations of the classes? what about other scheduled runs? What about the needed reverse move in Montreal as there is no current through way? Or would the turnout near Montpelier be rebuilt for direct access? Straight through ( direct) service could be accomplished without the need of a new station, but means having to detour by Lachine station and take the turn at Norman St. into the CN yard instead of proceeding straight as usual, followed by traveling through the busy CN freight yard, which means more track time. Then having to use some of AMTs trackage on the Deux-Montagnes line( after the rebuilt turn out) to enter Central station from the opposite direction to eliminate a reverse move. Then theres the need for construction in central station for the straight through access and there platforms for straight through are currently held for AMT trains I believe. Will any Trains be canceled or will this just be an addition to the roster? Im still waiting on replies from my contacts for more information but apparently so are they !

Edit : heres the other pic of the track work in central station im not sure how up to date it is however...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Montr ... ckPlan.gif

Reversing a train into/out of Central Station is really quite simple, not time consuming at all and done on a regular basis with passengers on board.

I’ve been on #60 arriving from Toronto. We first used the by-pass line to the Victoria Bridge. Pulled a short distance out onto the bridge then backed into Central Station still arriving on time. Any train performing a similar move would be correctly positioned to continue to Quebec City.

I’ve also been on #69 when we’ve backed out of Central to the Victoria Bridge. Proceeded forward on the by-pass line. Regained the direct line from Central then continued onto Dorval and Toronto.

Not sure if #60 and #69 still do but #39 (Montreal-Ottawa) does.

Yes, backing up the mile or so between the wye in Point St-Charles and Central Station is not a real problem. The track speed along there isn't very fast to start with. On the other hand, going through the freight yard, around the mountain, and through the tunnel would be a larger issue. Not only would it take somewhat longer, but there's also the diesel fumes in the tunnel to deal with.

Trains going through Toronto Union Station is already a common occurance. Not only do some trains originate at Aldershot or Oshawa, but many trains are run through pairs, such as Montreal-Toronto #57 and Toronto-Windsor #75, which use the same consist. Sometimes passengers ticketed on the continuation of the run are permitted to stay on board during the layover in Toronto.

Food service is another non-issue since almost all corridor trains feature at-your-seat cart service. Full meals are served in business class and snacks (including sandwiches) are available in economy. It would be easily possible to extend full/hot meal service to economy passengers, for a fee of course, if the demand was there. It might be nice to have a dining car available on such longer distance trips, but it's hardly necessary.

After reading all the posts on this issue, there is one reason or condition that has not been mentioned. Is there a need or demand for through service? I'm sure that VIA , if the demand was great enough,would have considered and implemented this option.

Lil Red Truck wrote:After reading all the posts on this issue, there is one reason or condition that has not been mentioned. Is there a need or demand for through service? I'm sure that VIA , if the demand was great enough,would have considered and implemented this option.

Very good question lil red truck and to answer simply YES there is a demand however not as great as one would expect , with that being said I believe this is why it will only be a 1 a day occurrence no matter the season or holiday spike in ridership. I do believe this also comes as a more so attempt to fire back at bus lines that are in the corridor which may soon expand there service (megabus). Currently you can NOT take a Greyhound from end to end with out transfers and layovers which make the quickest trip 18 and 1/2 hours. also by plane there is no direst service all trips have a transfer in Toronto (YYZ). Although it is faster average trip by plane with layover is 6 hrs. and its rather pricey at best. In retrospect a 12 hr trip by train does not seem so bad give the alternatives.

PS train #72 (Windsor -Toronto) doubles as train #64 (Toronto- Montreal) I've taken this many times, (recently within the last 3 months) and have noticed when we reach Toronto I disembark from VIA 1 and so do roughly 65-70% of the passengers, the rest stay on-board for points further East ( ie; Montreal). I can't tell you how many from economy stay on-board as I don't get a chance to walk the train upon arrival, but Id guess roughly the same amount.

However My railroading in Canada is at a halt for now as Im back home in the USA for a work contract. I'll be here for a while, back to old reliable late bucket Amtrak, Im going to miss VIA Rail. Just a question Ive never been further than Montreal on VIA, does VIA operate LRC cars on any of the Montreal-Quebec city runs or is it all Renaissance and Stainless steel Equipment now?

Doing a direct way from Toronto,to Quebec city is a bit complicated to do..

Fisrt,the way the track are done,we have no choice to get in and after,do a back-up to get out,but by leaving a light loco on the right way at the station and use it to get off on the other way could be faster,but,passenger will be contract to do the second part of the ride by backward way,peopple will say that must have to turn the seats..
By back-ing up to continue,the train have to do the back up pretty far,by using the same way,to swith,but have to back-up a bit over the Welligton CN bridge,near PSC yard and after,move back on foward to pass behind the yard and take Victoria bridge.

The second way is to skip the Montreal Central station,but need to built a new station near Victoria bridge,the require a bus service to do the shuttle between Montreal Central station to the other station,it's a lot of thing to do..

By the same,By asking the question directly to a VIA Rail employee,I get for answer that the trains can't to the direct ride,cause lot of passenger does'nt go to Quebec and the ones wo want to go to have to transfert of train..
First,the train is fusbrished to do a specific ride,so,on the way,they could be on shortage of food,drinks or alcool..
And by making stop al the trains to the Montreal Central station,that make a chance to the travelers to have a lunch,cigarette and get a short remain time,to get a little walk,sometime,when sitting 4 or 5 hours of time,peopple need to walk a bit to strech threir legs a little bit..


Probably,If the governement finally realise the TGV line,that could be possible to see a direct connection from Windsor to Quebec city.But for the TGV,we could dream about it for a while...


And VIA Rail still using LRC car on Montreal-Quebec trains,at least,once a day..
VIA 27 have most of the time,LRC car...

I did the ride a few times,here on of them,where I shooted some videos from the train..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_PBvJOla4s

Changing ends by changing engines worked fine for DB at Frankfurt (took less than 10 min. when I watched it), but North American HEP is not well adapted to quick connect/disconnect - when Amtrak does it, the cars are without lights, ventilation or power doors for about 15 minutes. A better solution might be to use a cab car a' la' Amtrak's Downeaster and Vermont trains. Also, railroad operations are prone to "we've always done it that way", and it's been "Montreal, all change" with few (if any) exceptions since long before the advent of VIA.

jbvb wrote:Changing ends by changing engines worked fine for DB at Frankfurt (took less than 10 min. when I watched it), but North American HEP is not well adapted to quick connect/disconnect - when Amtrak does it, the cars are without lights, ventilation or power doors for about 15 minutes. A better solution might be to use a cab car a' la' Amtrak's Downeaster and Vermont trains. Also, railroad operations are prone to "we've always done it that way", and it's been "Montreal, all change" with few (if any) exceptions since long before the advent of VIA.

Cab, cabbages, or a second locomotive on that train would be the easiest way to implement answer for extended train services through Montreal. Old LRC locomotives could be easily converted into non-powered "cabs" if any are still around.

If we are talking Windsor to Quebec City - via Toronto and Montrel - is this potentially a route that could support an overnight train, with the majority of the overnight portion being between Toronto and Montreal - much like during the days of when the Enterprise operated? However, one would likely have to deal with a "layover" at Kingston or somewhere along the line if Toronto and Montreal were to get passenger friendly train hours. Also it would be mostly daylight runing to evening running between Quebec City and Montreal as well as Toronto to Windsor. In between Montreal and Toronto, you've got multiple trains per day, so I could see this portion being your overnight piece, the only problem is you'd still lend yourself to a "layover" somewhere in between, or perhaps extra time is eaten up at Montreal doing the turn-around shuffle. Course the other problem is VIA likely doesn't have the sleepers to equip the train sufficiently. Just a thought.

jp1822 wrote:If we are talking Windsor to Quebec City - via Toronto and Montrel - is this potentially a route that could support an overnight train, with the majority of the overnight portion being between Toronto and Montreal - much like during the days of when the Enterprise operated? .

The Enterprise was discontinued about 5 years ago and it would be interesting to see the O&D stats on how many passengers conected through to Windsor or Quebec City. But I don't see how the market has changed any where an overnight train would now be successful. VIA's resources are better spent on increasing daytime services......the trains people want to ride.

When the track upgrades are complete, a four hour schedule will be available again. A train could leave Montreal or Toronto at 8pm and still be in the other city by midnight.