Where are the Trackless-Trolleys?!

Wdobner wrote:Unfortunately Philadelphia's ETB lines pass through neighborhoods which could largely care less whether or not they get diesel or electric buses..

Yes, and in these neighborhoods, the primary care is being able to go about your business without getting shot, rather if a bus is operated with diesel or electric power.

It's the same attitude that helped kill off the North Philly trolleys. Many of these people openly despised the trolleys, saying that the trolleys provided with lousy service, was slower than buses, and had no amenities [like AC] that buses had. When I rode the 23 when it was operated with trolleys, the slightest thing would delay the cars like a double-parked car in front of the State Store on Germantown Ave, trash trucks, car accidents, and the all-too-familiar police activity in front of the many corner bars along the route. whenever the car got delayed, the grumbling started in earnest. Also, back in the 80's, the 23 had the PCC's while the buses had the new Neoplan and RTS's and they causes some feelings of discriminaton amongst the riders of the trolley lines. These people actually welcomed the bus substitution whenever SEPTA instituted it for some reason. So when SEPTA ended PCC service on these lines in 1992, nobody that lived along the lines protested the bustitution[mostly blacks, latinos], the ones that made all of the noise were railfans, and the environmentalists[mostly whites].

The same attitude prevails with the lack of a public outcry over the 15 now. The people that ride the line could care less whether it is a bus or trolley car, as long as the damn thing comes every 15 minutes and gets them to where they are going.

The same attitude prevails with the lack of a public outcry over the 15 now. The people that ride the line could care less whether it is a bus or trolley car, as long as the damn thing comes every 15 minutes and gets them to where they are going.

You couldn't have said it better. Back when the 15 was supposed to start, I was trying to share my excitement with other riders, and most people told me they dreaded the trolley coming back with things like...oh it will take longer, it will get stuck behind trucks, etc. etc....That's SEPTA's fault for not enforcing parking, etc. Street supervisors have the authority as the PPA does to issue tickets for non-moving violations.

Today's attitude also stems from SEPTA's dismal performance. As long as its running, they're happy. We're a year into the 15 debacle, and no one is batting an eye. Despite the media coverage, no one is upset that $98 mil went down the drain. The 23 is also being slowly dismantled, and I haven't heard anything about the "Chestnut Hillers" being upset about that either. Just a sign of the times I suppose. Although historically, rail proponents in this area haven't exactly done well in combatting the constant shrinkage of the system.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that most people could care less whether they ride a bus or a trolley, as long as the vehicle comes on time, gets them where they want to go in reasonable amount of time, and doesn't cost a small fortune to ride. With the exception of those of us who are railfans, and prefer the rail vehicle to the bus because it is a rail vehicle, or rail advocates who see the envioronmental and energy use advantages of rail, particularly electric powered rail, most people don't see themselves as being seriously affected by the subsitution of buses for rail vehicles.-- And since, at least until the advent of the Kawasaki LRV's, buses were air conditioned, while the much older streetcars weren't, comfort was much more important to the average rider, than the idea of retaining the streetcar.

Add a few dollars to the cost of petrolium based fuels, AND have a serious of very intense air quality alerts and we might see this apathy shift. Until then, those of us who want to see streetcars ( or Light Rail Lines) become the primary form of urban transit will be in the minority.

Indeed. Its already been pointed out that in Seattle, the public launched an outcry for retention of the ETB system. Similiarly, the three cities/towns the MBTA's system operates in (Cambridge, Watertown, and Belmont) are definately areas to the left of the dial on environmental issues, etc. I can imagine that there would be a similiar outcry here.

Boston has had a major push, however, in inner city neighborhoods, to clean up the diesel bus fleet, years after the urban ETB system was lost. Studies linking diesel exhaust to asthma were used to push for conversionof well over 75% of the bus fleet in the City of Boston to CNG. Too bad there was no consideration given to putting the wires back up.

Are there any similiar efforts in Philly to reduce the emissions from SEPTA buses? From what little I know, SEPTA is still all-diesel. If so, these could provide another method of building support for the tracklesses....along with ever rising fuel prices.

octr202 wrote:Are there any similiar efforts in Philly to reduce the emissions from SEPTA buses? From what little I know, SEPTA is still all-diesel. If so, these could provide another method of building support for the tracklesses....along with ever rising fuel prices.

There are no efforts in this city that I know of. The Clear Air Council has absolutely NO clout with governmental entities like City Council, and you can forget talking to anyone in Harrisburg, since those idiots want Philadelphia to fall of the face of the earth.

Basically, there is no political leadership that cares about the environment in this city. All these people do is sit there and take taxpayer money and give it to their well-connected friends. As long as they tell their stupid electorate what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear and do, they will stay in power.

Thats pretty much why we have the limited system that we do. SEPTA is no more than a bus system augmented by 2 subways and a few trains. The city is too busy looking the other way and for that matter SEPTA is probablly as corrupt as the city in terms of giving out contracts for useless projects to keep engineering firms in business.

Its been awhile since I've been in Philly (97) but the SEPTA route that ran along Synder ave (Souf Philly) was a Trolleybus then back in 97. Did they got rid of these tooo?