Why no Regional Rail ticket machines at 30th Street Station

[Suburban Station]

mac Traxx it's a personal preference most are unlikely to share, particularly among riders under 40. fare evasion occurs regularly (although more often conductors are avoiding the 29th century fare collection approach used by septa by not collecting fares).
there are options, it isn't rocket science, and luckily plenty of other company's have the issue of counterfeit tickets.

[leviramsey]

With that thought there is still those who will try to beat this new system using a counterfeit ticket photo on their
smartphone - a sharp-eyed train crew member spotted it and the user was arrested and charged with theft.

http://metrarail.com/metra/en/home/util ... icket.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The MBTA's mTicket app uses an animation of the current time down to the second moving on a background consisting of color bars which change from day to day. Thus far there haven't been any reports of riders spoofing it (beyond riders not being checked by conductors and thus not activating purchased tickets; this happens to me a decent proportion of the time on evening rush hour trains on the outer reaches of the Fitchburg line): it takes somewhat more than a screenshot.

I was down in Philadelphia a few weekends ago; and rode from Ft. Washington to Center City on a Sunday morning. The inbound conductors never got to us to collect the fare (the car (SL4, if I'm not mistaken) was pretty well full).

[Literalman]

What? Your commuter railroad accepts cash? Just kidding, I rode Septa twice this week. But I commute on Virginia Railway Express, which does not accept legal tender money or sell tickets on board. You must buy and validate tickets from VRE machines, which do not accept cash. A few offsite vendors do take money as payment.

Earlier this year, as sometimes happens, the ticket machines were not working. VRE told its passengers to use their smart phones instead. What about people who don't have a smart phone? I don't, but I had bought a monthly ticket.

Last year, I discovered that I could buy Septa tickets by mail, which I did. I sometimes make the NJT-Septa connection at Trenton, and time is tight for buying tickets even when there were machines on the platform. Now we're supposed to go upstairs between trains. Having my Septa ticket before I left Virginia was comforting.

[Head-end View]

Let me get this straight: You can't ride VRE, unless you have a credit card or smart-phone or are lucky enough to be near a location that sells tickets for cash, which isn't at/near every station? Are you serious? Their TVM's do not accept United States currency? How do they get away with that? I can only guess that their clientele is mostly middle class people.

And again I point out what a class act NYC's MTA is, as their TVM's accept cash or credit card.

[MichaelBug]

Let me get this straight: You can't ride VRE, unless you have a credit card or smart-phone or are lucky enough to be near a location that sells tickets for cash, which isn't at/near every station? Are you serious? Their TVM's do not accept United States currency? How do they get away with that? I can only guess that their clientele is mostly middle class people.

And again I point out what a class act NYC's MTA is, as their TVM's accept cash or credit card.

That's correct... VRE TVM's do not accept cash (although they do accept some debit cards).

And there is no way to buy VRE tickets with cash @ Washington Union Station at present.

However, it should be noted that VRE has extremely limited weekday off-peak service & NO weekend service whatsoever.

[loufah]

But I commute on Virginia Railway Express, which does not accept legal tender money or sell tickets on board. You must buy and validate tickets from VRE machines, which do not accept cash.

Interesting that SEPTA is the complete opposite. I was waiting in line at the 15th Street MFL agent booth (because I had to buy a transfer). In front of me was a group of teenagers, the first of whom only had plastic. It took a couple minutes for her to confab with her friends to find one with enough cash to buy a fare. They didn't yield their place in line while negotiating.

[Head-end View]

Not exactly surprising. SEPTA is an old school transit agency operating in an old school kind of city. VRE is a relatively new transit agency with a much newer philosophy and probably serves a mostly middle-class, business oriented customer base in the Virginia suburbs so they can get away with actually not accepting United States Currency, bizarre as that is. Again though, New York's MTA is the best of all worlds accepting cash or credit cards; just the way it should be.

[SubwayTim]

IIRC, RRD ticket sales are outsourced through a third party, so to the best of my knowledge they are not unionized. So the issue of acquiring new TVM's is not labor related.

Amen to that.

I can't see how hard it is buy new TVM's since most other transit agencies use them (i.e NJT, Path, LIRR, etc.) The equipment is pretty much off the shelf these days.

If they put in TVMs all those lucrative surcharges would evaporate. The last time I went through PHL I picked up a "how to ride" brochure; it didn't even MENTION buying in advance - just "pay 8 bucks on the train". I reported it to the Airport's customer service chief and to the head of the Visitors' Bureau, after which I heard precisely absolutely completely nada.

What was the SEPTA slogan awhile back--we're getting there?

That slogan was preceded by "Serious About Change", which only lasted until people started adding graffiti like "Yeah. Nickels, dimes, and quarters."

Another SEPTA slogan I remember was "Better Than Driving" (I believe back in the early/mid 1990's)...

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone:

After reading many of these posts one would think that SEPTA ONLY relies on tokens and cash to collect fares...

What about mentioning where SEPTA - HAS - gotten fare media types right?

Regular users have had the option of unlimited use Monthly and Weekly Transpasses and Trailpasses since the
late 1980s in their current form...They are used by the vast majority of SEPTA riders...

Loufah: While you were standing in line any idea how many pass holders walked past bypassing the line?
Those teenagers could have gone to a nearby sales office - such as in Suburban Station...They take plastic...

In recent years SEPTA introduced the Independence Pass for one day unlimited use (with restrictions such as not
being valid on Regional Rail trains before 9:30am on weekdays and the $5 "penalty" to travel to Trenton and West
Trenton, NJ) and the one day 8 ride Convenience Pass for transit riders...

Head-End View: Back before the Metrocard was introduced in New York City (1994) remember when Subway
riders had to have tokens to enter at stations and only coins (which continues to this day) are accepted on buses?

Before the Metrocard NYC Transit riders had no discounts, no passes and had to pay separate fares to ride buses
and subways...The Metrocard changed all that by offering discounts: The first one was $1 rides on weekends when
the fare was $1.25...The big changes were free transfers in 1997 and the Unlimited ride card types in 1998...
As it would turn out the NYC Transit token would be finally be phased out in 2003 after a 50 year "reign".
The Metrocard system was phased in gradually over what would turn out to be a nine year time period.

What SEPTA has offered is a discount to most users - only riders paying cash directly to ride transit or on board
Regional Rail have none...Tokens still offer a 45 cents per ride discount each...

I agree that the $1 transfer fee is too high and the coming introduction of "caps" on the use of the new Key cards
are current and eventual problems respectively and need to be dealt with...

MACTRAXX

[JeffersonLeeEng]

I agree that the $1 transfer fee is too high and the coming introduction of "caps" on the use of the new Key cards
are current and eventual problems respectively and need to be dealt with...

This is part of the reason why "Key" has had so many implementation delays and teething problems. SEPTA management's insistence at trying to reduce "fare leakage" is more or less a sticking point in most people's so-called craw. Much of the "zone-flattening" that came about on a number of bus routes (especially the suburban one) and the "Evening/Weekend" fares on regional rail looked to be similar to Atlanta's MARTA system (BTW, they had the Breeze fare card for almost a decade now). But SEPTA didn't do anything beyond that, and the premium fare for the 123, 124, 125, 150 and the NHSL doesn't help out much either.

-Jefferson

[ExCon90]

Maybe the simplest and quickest thing would be to come up with a rational fare structure rather than trying to design software to accommodate an irrational fare structure.

[JeffK]

Maybe the simplest and quickest thing would be to come up with a rational fare structure rather than trying to design software to accommodate an irrational fare structure.

You've nailed the problem. I've spoken with a couple of people in SEPTA's planning department; they are almost obsessive about creating a full-blown copy of the existing crazy quilt inherited from the PTC, Red Arrow, etc. The argument seems to be that despite how contorted the existing system is, they know how to follow its revenue streams and replication will allow an apples-to-apples comparison once the Key is in place. IMO it's yet another example of the "last dime, every time" mentality that hamstrings any effort to make the system easier to use.

The most frustrating part for me is that I fought similar battles during years of working on large-scale IT systems. Nearly every in-place rebuild ended up costing more and doing less than if there'd been a rethink up front. All of the quirks, patches, special cases, exceptions, bugs and failure points that had collected over the years were brought forward instead of being redesigned out of existence. Yet no matter how many times, someone was always beating the same drum for whatever project came next.

[SouthernRailway]

SouthernRailway, my apologies for flaming you. I was just totally surprised by your confusion at having to buy a ticket at a ticket window. I'm guessing you're much younger than I am, and you've grown up in a world of new technology. I'm a retiree and I like the best of both the new and the old ways. Though I like TVM's, I have no need to buy a ticket on a smart-phone. I remember telephones with dials and pay-phone booths too.

One other thing I just have to ask you. Are you one of those customers at Starbucks who actually uses a smart-phone app or a credit card to buy a $2.00 cup of coffee instead of just paying cash? Sorry, I just had to ask you that. (Chuckle!)

BTW, if you think SEPTA is bad, you should see Boston's MBTA where they don't even have ticket windows or TVM's at many commuter-rail stations and you buy your ticket at the candy store down the street. I'm not kidding! That's totally antiquated! Also in the NYC Subway, you can still buy your Metrocard at the "token booth", though PATH stations only have TVM's, no ticket agents. MTA's Penn and Grand Central Stations have TVM's and conventional staffed ticket windows, which both serve their purpose.

And SemperFidelis, 1950's, 60's and 70's rock-and-roll is where it's at good buddy. Always was and always will be for me anyway! LOL

Apologies accepted, and no worries. To respond:

Yes, I do use a Starbucks card to buy a $2.00 cup of coffee instead of paying cash. Doing it with a Starbucks card (or app) gets rewards program benefits: free refills, free items after every few purchases, free add-ons to drinks, etc. Why would you give all that up in order to pay cash? Similarly, I pay for everything else that I can with a credit card, since it generates frequent flyer miles (and elite status on the airline that I fly). Why give that up?

Unfortunately most NYC Transit subway stations don't sell Metrocards except through kiosks (which take cash and credit cards).

Finally, SEPTA should realize a lot of people have pre-tax transit programs--meaning that they deduct some of their salary, on a pre-tax basis, and can use that to buy mass transit tickets. To buy the tickets, you have to either use the program provider's debit card or submit a receipt to the provider for reimbursement. Cash with no receipt doesn't work. I save about 30% or whatever my tax rate is by taking part in a pre-tax transit program, and I'd be thus penalized by almost 50% of the fare if I paid cash. That's a raw deal.

[MACTRAXX]

Maybe the simplest and quickest thing would be to come up with a rational fare structure rather than trying to design software to accommodate an irrational fare structure.

That's exactly the problem. I've spoken with a couple of people in SEPTA's planning department; they are almost obsessed with building an electronic copy of the existing crazy-quilt system. The argument seems to be that despite how contorted the existing system is, they know how to follow its revenue streams and replication will allow an apples-to-apples comparison once the Key is in place. IMO it's yet another example of the "last dime, every time" mentality that hamstrings any effort to make the system easier to use.

The most frustrating part for me is that I fought similar battles during years of working on large-scale IT systems. Nearly every in-place rebuild ended up costing more and doing less than if there'd been a rethink up front. All of the quirks, patches, special cases, exceptions, bugs and failure points etc. that had collected over the years were brought forward instead of being redesigned out of existence. Yet no matter how many times, someone was always beating the same drum for whatever project came next.

JK: What would it take for SEPTA to implement an easier to understand and use fare system for the Key?
Would it take planners that more understand the system and its riders instead of only the monetary implications?

Is the use of "caps" on Monthly and Weekly pass types under the Key system a way of keeping the thought of
"every nickel and every dime every time" mentality in place? I feel that it is and is a way of "nickel and diming"
regular pass users that have been somewhat more or less immune since the current system has been in place
since 1988. That to me is not the way to treat your most loyal riders (outside of low income dependent users)
who rely on the system on a daily basis and in cases literally plan their lives around their use of mass transit.

MACTRAXX

[JeffK]

Similarly, I pay for everything else that I can with a credit card, since it generates frequent flyer miles (and elite status on the airline that I fly). Why give that up?

Heck, I'm (finally!) retired and pay for as many things as possible electronically as well. I don't have to carry cash and my CC frequent flier miles have already spawned several tix to Europe and one to Australia.

Getting back to SEPTA, the issue I see is that while it's true most commuters avoid the cash / exact-fare issue by buying tickets or passes, they're already "inside" the system. SEPTA isn't a club with closed membership but should be more like a store that anyone can patronize. They should be equally welcoming to visitors, casual users, and especially to potential regular riders who could be lured away from alternative modes - if only the system weren't so off-putting. As Jefferson pointed out that's not the case now.