Vaccine mandate for Amtrak employees

Amtrak’s employee vaccine mandate deadline is in November and apparently, like some airlines have faced, a lot of employees particularly on the T&E side of things are refusing to comply with the mandate. Word is Amtrak management is stating that they will not back down from the mandates even if that means having to reimpose system wide route frequency cuts to make up for lack of staffing and that they will proceed with dismissing said employees. Across the board cuts appear to be on the table including tri-weekly service on once daily routes and cutting frequencies on corridor routes. This is going to be interesting.

Can Amtrak back down politically even if it wanted to? It’s biggest benefactor of all time, politically speaking, is pushing broad mandates across the economy.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm Amtrak’s employee vaccine mandate deadline is in November and apparently, like some airlines have faced, a lot of employees particularly on the T&E side of things are refusing to comply with the mandate. Word is Amtrak management is stating that they will not back down from the mandates even if that means having to reimpose system wide route frequency cuts to make up for lack of staffing and that they will proceed with dismissing said employees. Across the board cuts appear to be on the table including tri-weekly service on once daily routes and cutting frequencies on corridor routes. This is going to be interesting.

This is not surprising.

The question here now, like all mandates that have gone into effect, is one of numbers.

How many Amtrak employees are there?
How many are vaccinated?
How many are refusing the shot?

United Airlines says 99.5% have been vaccinated, the rest ether terminated or on leave. This is being spread through the airline industry... and lawsuits against it aren't going to have much luck, per ABC News.

All of this gets down to how many crewmembers are threatening to quit over the vaccine mandate? Because right now, the economy sucks and the best job you got right now is the one you're already in.

It will be interesting to see though how many actually go along with quitting/being terminated. I'm sure a lot more employees are making noise about refusing than will actually accept termination when the deadline hits.

Right now it looks like 2% of United requested either medical or religious accommodation, 1% were fired. What hasn't been measured are the people who quit or retired between the time of the announcement and the deadline, or what the workgroup percentages are.

I'd assume less than 5% of the total employee base will quit or be fired, but if that turns out to be 15% of a specific workgroup or crew base, that could be very problematic, especially if it's a position with a long lead time for vetting and training.

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This will indeed be interesting to watch. The Southwest Airlines “sickout” this past weekend has had a major ripple effect nationwide and has only encouraged more employees at other companies to say “no” to the vAcCiNe mandate. Which doesn’t even technically exist at the moment. It was basically just a press release put out by the administration. Nothing official has been signed. And as of yesterday almost 900 American Airlines flights were cancelled. The momentum is only going to increase going forward.

And with regards to Amtrak the cascading effect the “unforeseen crew changes” that cancelled 2 Hartford Line trains on Sunday for up to 45 minutes and delayed 4 Downeaster on Columbus Day for up to 3-4 hours because of an issue with just a handful of crew members is something not to be overlooked. And don’t forget Amtrak holds the operating contracts for Metrolink, the MARC Penn Line, and Shore Line East. Those commuters could be affected as well.

Furthermore Federal judges in NY and TX have blocked the mandate from being implemented for at least healthcare workers. And otherwise scores of workers in all industries are threatening to “bring the machine to its knees”. This could end up being a big showdown and (more) major egg on the Biden administration’s face.

Get your popcorn ready!

Couple points of fact checking here...

The Southwest Airlines “sickout” this past weekend has had a major ripple effect nationwide and has only encouraged more employees at other companies to say “no” to the vAcCiNe mandate.

Multiple sources have confirmed, including the pilots union, that this was not labor-related. There was no "sick out".

Furthermore Federal judges in NY and TX have blocked the mandate from being implemented for at least healthcare workers

In NY, this only applies to people with religious exemptions. Everything else is fair game.

NaugyRR wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:59 am In NY, this only applies to people with religious exemptions. Everything else is fair game.

Correct. Courts have been pretty consistent that religious exemptions must be granted. Those not granting them are really running into issues. Regarding the Southwest Sickout, it is pretty clear that it wasn't a sickout at all. Absentee rates were on par with what we saw this summer. Southwest is living and dying by its run a big airline on a budget airline model.

I am pretty skeptical that we will see many people quit or be fired over vaccine mandates. Most people have to work to feed their families and aren't going to just quit their livelihood if they cannot get another job easily. The Federal contractor mandates will apply to the other large and medium size railroads as well.

NH2060 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 am This will indeed be interesting to watch. The Southwest Airlines “sickout” this past weekend has had a major ripple effect nationwide and has only encouraged more employees at other companies to say “no” to the vAcCiNe mandate. Which doesn’t even technically exist at the moment. It was basically just a press release put out by the administration. Nothing official has been signed. And as of yesterday almost 900 American Airlines flights were cancelled. The momentum is only going to increase going forward.

Lets add some context here and refute some claims.

How Southwest schedules and operates it's flights compounded a FAA air traffic control issue. In an earlier article the Southwest Airline Pilots Association refuted claims of a vaccine mandate related slowdown.

And with regards to Amtrak the cascading effect the “unforeseen crew changes” that cancelled 2 Hartford Line trains on Sunday for up to 45 minutes and delayed 4 Downeaster on Columbus Day for up to 3-4 hours because of an issue with just a handful of crew members is something not to be overlooked. And don’t forget Amtrak holds the operating contracts for Metrolink, the MARC Penn Line, and Shore Line East. Those commuters could be affected as well.

Until we know more, we cannot assume it's mandate related. That cannot be stated enough.

Furthermore Federal judges in NY and TX have blocked the mandate from being implemented for at least healthcare workers. And otherwise scores of workers in all industries are threatening to “bring the machine to its knees”. This could end up being a big showdown and (more) major egg on the Biden administration’s face.

Now hold up there. I think you're oversimplifying, and you're not proving your point with news articles.

Via CBS, a federal judge has ordered that religious exemptions must apply for health care workers. 17 health care workers sued over having to take the vaccine because they used fetal cell lines from procured abortions, contrary to their religious beliefs. (I want to ask them if they ever took Tylenol, because that used fetal cell lines in testing...) In all other cases, the mandate is still in effect.

In Texas, there is no such ruling (not even Google News can find it). There is a state-wide executive order that's causing chaos, though. Getting back to transportation, Both American Airlines and Sourthwest Airlines say that the President's Executive Order supersedes Gov. Abbot's order.

Next time, I want to see your proof.

As a vaccinated pilot I do not want a non vaccinated pilot as the other pilot in the cockpit. Masking is not enough. Wonder if that is an issue at Southwest ? Suffered thru too many years of second hand smoke. Doctor did find some smoking residue in my lung even though never smoked.

west point wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:44 pm As a vaccinated pilot I do not want a non vaccinated pilot as the other pilot in the cockpit. Masking is not enough. Wonder if that is an issue at Southwest ? Suffered thru too many years of second hand smoke. Doctor did find some smoking residue in my lung even though never smoked.

This raises an interesting point: If you're in a "safety sensitive" position (pilot or engineer), are unvaccinated, and suddenly you're incapacitated while performing your duties because of COVID-19...

Well, you see what I'm getting at, and I think this is what United's going through. Any test that isn't 100% accurate only mitigates the issue so much. United probably thinks that an unvaccinated pilot/copilot is too much of a risk (aka plane crash), regardless of exemption. The risk goes way down if the pilot/copilot is vaccinated.

I will not be surprised if that is what Amtrak does as well. If such critical personnel refuse it on non-exempt grounds, they're fired. If they refuse it for an exception, they get reassigned to a non-critical position.

Federal EEOC guidance with respect to vaccine mandates reads in pertinent part: "employer must provide a reasonable accommodation unless it would pose an undue hardship as defined by Title VII ("more than de minimis cost" to the operation of the employer’s business," This appears to be the test that would be applied. The complete section is "13. May an employer covered by the ADA and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 compel all of its employees to take the influenza or COVID-19 vaccine regardless of their medical conditions or their religious beliefs during a pandemic?

No. An employee may be entitled to an exemption from a mandatory vaccination requirement based on an ADA disability that prevents him from taking the vaccine. This would be a reasonable accommodation barring undue hardship (significant difficulty or expense). Similarly, under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, once an employer receives notice that an employee’s sincerely held religious belief, practice, or observance prevents him from taking the vaccine, the employer must provide a reasonable accommodation unless it would pose an undue hardship as defined by Title VII ("more than de minimis cost" to the operation of the employer’s business, which is a lower standard than under the ADA)." https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/pand ... lities-act

west point wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:44 pm As a vaccinated pilot I do not want a non vaccinated pilot as the other pilot in the cockpit. Masking is not enough. Wonder if that is an issue at Southwest ? Suffered thru too many years of second hand smoke. Doctor did find some smoking residue in my lung even though never smoked.

If you're vaccinated, you're protected, so it shouldn't matter if you're sitting next to someone unvaccinated.

The question nobody wants to answer is why the vaccines aren't working as expected.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:33 pm This raises an interesting point: If you're in a "safety sensitive" position (pilot or engineer), are unvaccinated, and suddenly you're incapacitated while performing your duties because of COVID-19...

Having had COVID, there's no "sudden incapacitation"... I was able to work thru it thanks to being remote. Yeah, I was tired. I had a cough. A few aches and pains. It built up over a couple days, so anyone working in a safety sensitive position would have fair warning to wave off and call in sick.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:33 pm Well, you see what I'm getting at, and I think this is what United's going through. Any test that isn't 100% accurate only mitigates the issue so much. United probably thinks that an unvaccinated pilot/copilot is too much of a risk (aka plane crash), regardless of exemption.

Uh, no. My personal opinion is the airline moves toward mandates are entirely political, aside from perhaps Southwest. It's not hard to assume that personal relationships between United and the White House are factoring into United's decisions, seeing as the current head of United's global communications team was Obama's press secretary (Josh Earnest) and many players from Obama's team are back in the White House.

Then again, the government owns a good portion of the airlines who took bailout money (via warrants, not stock). Maybe there have been promises to forgive some of that liability in return for helping the Administration look more competent?

So long as this topic is being expanded to include the whole universe, and to which I say "Thank you Mr. Brown", of VAX resistance, I'd like to include some background, and possibly understanding, where the religious convictions argument comes into play. This, incidentally, has direct impact within my own family:

https://research.tamu.edu/2021/05/04/wh ... cinations/

Fair Use:

According to The New York Times, millions of white evangelical adults in the United States don’t intend to be vaccinated against COVID-19. This poses many challenges to battling the virus, including the prevention of herd immunity. According to religious studies scholars from the College of Liberal Arts, this group’s justification for not getting vaccinated lies in both their religious and political beliefs.

All I know for myself, it was about 6P Feb 3 when a neighbor is banging on my door; "Gil, Gil, there's going to be a VAX clinic over at the High School; you got to sign up now". Of course I let her in and signed up for one of the places they had open to the public (it was mainly for staff). Out of 7500 respondents, they selected 750 - one of which was me. How they made the selection, I know not, I ask not.

For my VAX-3 "booster", I just walked in to my local pharmacy two weeks ago, and got it "on demand". I, at 80yo, have not had any side effects whatever.

Now so far as the neighbor, she (51yo) had to drive to Peoria (150mi) for hers. Her husband to Quincy (180mi).