Train lifespans

The MBTA claims to have new Orange Line cars in service by 2015 and the impression that I got was that these would be in addition to the 01200s.

How long do you think it will be before we see new trains on the Red Line? With the 01700s and 01800s being such recent purchases and the 01500s/01600s having been rebuilt in the '80s I doubt it would be anytime soon. The Green and Blue Lines make it seem like the average life of each series of cars is 25-35 years. The 0600s could have lasted longer on the Blue Line I thought other than the poor condition of their exteriors.

I don't think the redline will see any new cars before another good 15 - 20 years or so, but it depends on how most of the fleet holds up. It really depends on how things hold up with cars; you can only estimate how long they will last. I think the 0600's will be well due for replacement by the time the new one's come into service; they are heavily corroded and have had some age related problems... I now wonder what the T is going to on the green line with the aging Boeings and 1/2 an order of Bredas.

The 01500s and 01600s will be gone by 2015 along with the Orane LIne cars. That will have been well over 25 years since the 01500s and 01600s received their overhaul, and will put them at 45 years old at retirement. Can't go much beyond that. The Orange Line needs an increase in the fleet and a replacement for the badly beaten up cars currently used, simply can't handle the crowds on the line for as long as it has. Need more cars and need them fast. But the cars are still good cars none the less. Age at retirement will be 35 years old, very decent life span for them considering the abuse they have had to endure.

efin98 wrote:. The Orange Line needs an increase in the fleet and a replacement for the badly beaten up cars currently used, simply can't handle the crowds on the line for as long as it has. Need more cars and need them fast. But the cars are still good cars none the less. Age at retirement will be 35 years old, very decent life span for them considering the abuse they have had to endure.

Extending the platforms to handle 8 cars would be a start. The 1200's are only 4 inches shorter than the red line cars.Buying cars with an extra 4 inches doesn't really help. With the Washington St tunnel you couldn't make the cars wider, This would also help out with the situation if you could do it. I think by the time it comes to replace the cars they should also rebuild and modernize the Washington St tunnel. If at all posible after that start to run cars like the WMATA. These cars would be excellent on the SW Corridor and Haymarket North section. They would also would be able to go faster and are 6 feet longer than the current 1200's. Just throwing some ideas into the pot. I am also a daily OL rider during the school year.

This is from the MBTA Captial Improvement Plan:

The MBTA adheres to a general standard
lifecycle of 35 years for rapid transit and
light rail vehicles, 25 years for
commuter rail locomotives, 25 to 30
years for commuter rail coaches, and 15
years for buses. Scheduled major overhauls, maintenance, and planned retirements
help these fleets reach their useful life, and prev

I was under the impression that the 01500's and 01600's would have a longer service life than the 01400's (1963-94) simply because parts are a lot easier to come by for those cars, in large part due to the 01700's being so similar in design. Granted planning for a new series of cars needs to start years in advance and they shouldn't push their luck too much longer with 36-year-old cars...but it's not as urgent a situation as with the 01400's when parts got really scarce in their later service years. As long as they can still get parts, the 01500's and 01600's should still be reliably operable for a few more years. I'd worry if there aren't plans on the table for new cars, say, 7 years from now...but we're a ways away from the crisis stage.


Likewise, the 01200's share most of their design and parts with the whole fleet of Blue Line cars that are about to be scrapped, so I think the T can bank itself enough reserves of replacement parts to keep them operating for a long time. The problem with the OL is that capacity is already strained to the limit with the current fleet, which was purchased way before the El was replaced and platforms were lengthened. They need more cars NOW, and the T will be flirting with the possibility of severe car shortages if any decent-sized number of 01200's go temporarily out-of-service with minor aches and pains, or if ANY cars eventually have to be scrapped because of the carbody corrosion that's become a problem on both those cars and the current Blue Line fleet. That's why it hurt not to be able to repurpose those 18 Blue Line cars. If you ever take a drive by Wellington Yard during peak hours...you will notice there's barely any spare cars sitting around. The line's ripe to get decimated one of these winters with a crippling car shortage during snow or extreme cold.

The dilemma there now becomes what do they do about the 18 extra cars they thought they were getting. A small interim order would probably have to be designed to operate in tandem with the 01200's because they'd make up too small a percentage of the active fleet to operate separately. But to do that you'd have to bypass too much modern technology to make them compatible with 25+ year old cars. Sort of the same deal as with the RL 01700's (hard to believe that the last of those is only 5 years older than the 01800's...but those are the sacrifices you have to make for compatibility). Only the Orange Line wouldn't be getting its highest-trafficked stations renovated or a brand new extension to offset the blander car order like the Red Line got in the 80's, and the Red Line didn't face the prospect of the vast majority of its fleet getting retired within 10-15 years of the 01700's being purchased. I would think the OL cars would have to be new and incompatible design like the new Blue Line cars...or else they'd be severely antiquated after just a few years' service. And the order would have to be large enough to sustain a significant percentage of service, like the Red Line 01800's...which may mean an overkill fleet for the few years when they'd run concurrent with the 01200's.

It's a tricky dilemma...can't fault the T for not having an easy answer for it yet. I'm interested to see what they do about it, because that line has extreme short-term and extreme long-term fleet needs that have to be met.

Porter Sq wrote:

efin98 wrote:. The Orange Line needs an increase in the fleet and a replacement for the badly beaten up cars currently used, simply can't handle the crowds on the line for as long as it has. Need more cars and need them fast. But the cars are still good cars none the less. Age at retirement will be 35 years old, very decent life span for them considering the abuse they have had to endure.

Extending the platforms to handle 8 cars would be a start. The 1200's are only 4 inches shorter than the red line cars.Buying cars with an extra 4 inches doesn't really help. With the Washington St tunnel you couldn't make the cars wider, This would also help out with the situation if you could do it. I think by the time it comes to replace the cars they should also rebuild and modernize the Washington St tunnel. If at all posible after that start to run cars like the WMATA. These cars would be excellent on the SW Corridor and Haymarket North section. They would also would be able to go faster and are 6 feet longer than the current 1200's. Just throwing some ideas into the pot. I am also a daily OL rider during the school year.

I never said the new cars would be like the Red Line cars, I said the fleet needs to be expanded. Next time quote me right or don't quote me at all.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:I was under the impression that the 01500's and 01600's would have a longer service life than the 01400's (1963-94) simply because parts are a lot easier to come by for those cars, in large part due to the 01700's being so similar in design. Granted planning for a new series of cars needs to start years in advance and they shouldn't push their luck too much longer with 36-year-old cars...but it's not as urgent a situation as with the 01400's when parts got really scarce in their later service years. As long as they can still get parts, the 01500's and 01600's should still be reliably operable for a few more years. I'd worry if there aren't plans on the table for new cars, say, 7 years from now...but we're a ways away from the crisis stage.

They already outlived the 1400s back in 1999/2000. The parts aren't the issue, it's how the bodies are holding up and they are accumulating more and more age so they eventually need replacement and that time is approaching fast.

Likewise, the 01200's share most of their design and parts with the whole fleet of Blue Line cars that are about to be scrapped, so I think the T can bank itself enough reserves of replacement parts to keep them operating for a long time. The problem with the OL is that capacity is already strained to the limit with the current fleet, which was purchased way before the El was replaced and platforms were lengthened. They need more cars NOW, and the T will be flirting with the possibility of severe car shortages if any decent-sized number of 01200's go temporarily out-of-service with minor aches and pains, or if ANY cars eventually have to be scrapped because of the carbody corrosion that's become a problem on both those cars and the current Blue Line fleet.

That's the whole point of replaceing the fleet and increasing the number of cars in the fleet. They are already close to 25 years old, they will be 35 at replacement- right at the expected time frame for MBTA rapid transit cars.

That's why it hurt not to be able to repurpose those 18 Blue Line cars. If you ever take a drive by Wellington Yard during peak hours...you will notice there's barely any spare cars sitting around. The line's ripe to get decimated one of these winters with a crippling car shortage during snow or extreme cold.

That proposal is long dead. They won't be going to the Orange Line any time soon. Infeasable and a waste of money.

The dilemma there now becomes what do they do about the 18 extra cars they thought they were getting. A small interim order would probably have to be designed to operate in tandem with the 01200's because they'd make up too small a percentage of the active fleet to operate separately. But to do that you'd have to bypass too much modern technology to make them compatible with 25+ year old cars. Sort of the same deal as with the RL 01700's (hard to believe that the last of those is only 5 years older than the 01800's...but those are the sacrifices you have to make for compatibility). Only the Orange Line wouldn't be getting its highest-trafficked stations renovated or a brand new extension to offset the blander car order like the Red Line got in the 80's, and the Red Line didn't face the prospect of the vast majority of its fleet getting retired within 10-15 years of the 01700's being purchased. I would think the OL cars would have to be new and incompatible design like the new Blue Line cars...or else they'd be severely antiquated after just a few years' service. And the order would have to be large enough to sustain a significant percentage of service, like the Red Line 01800's...which may mean an overkill fleet for the few years when they'd run concurrent with the 01200's.

ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING ordered for the Orange Line will be a total replacement. No interim orders. No rehabs. No used Blue Line cars. The fleet is on borrowed time.

efin98 wrote:I never said the new cars would be like the Red Line cars, I said the fleet needs to be expanded. Next time quote me right or don't quote me at all.

I don't think that he was attributing that point to anything you said. His reason for quoting you seems to be to only add to what you had to say.

Getting back on topic...

If the T were to purchase new Orange Line cars soon I'd imagine that it would be an entirely new fleet to replace the 01200s. I guess I misunderstood in their Transit Commitments what they meant by having 18 more cars total than what they have now.

I hate being so nitpicky, but I hope that they resemble the upcoming 0700s on the Blue Line and the 01800s on the Red Line. It would be nice for the T to have a uniform look.

mattster wrote:I hate being so nitpicky, but I hope that they resemble the upcoming 0700s on the Blue Line and the 01800s on the Red Line. It would be nice for the T to have a uniform look.

They probably will. All of their recent heavy-rail purchases have had stainless steel carbodies, so the exterior will almost certainly be silver-with-orange stripe, and the interior will probably have ample stainless steel and matching decor (i.e. none of that faux-wood paneling that must've seemed so trendy back in 1980). Not to mention quieter ride, ASA, electronic signage, concealed ATO box, etc.

Since the dimensions are so similar to the Blue Line's, I imagine Siemens will have a good shot at landing the contract if their BL cars perform well enough. Not many heavy-rail systems go with the smaller carbodies mandated by the BL and OL tunnel clearances, so It'll make maintenance a lot more cost-effective through the lifespan of both fleets if the designs are similar like they were when the two Hawker-Siddeley fleets were built in '78-'81.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:i.e. none of that faux-wood paneling that must've seemed so trendy back in 1980

Yeah I'm very glad no one finds that appealing anymore.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Not many heavy-rail systems go with the smaller carbodies mandated by the BL and OL tunnel clearances, so It'll make maintenance a lot more cost-effective through the lifespan of both fleets if the designs are similar like they were when the two Hawker-Siddeley fleets were built in '78-'81.

The T must have been in better shape back in the '80s having been able to purchase entirely new fleets for both lines and rebuilding and ordering new cars for the Red Line. Now they seem to have to struggle to get anything done.

Ill be honest with everyone. At Seashore the best cars that we have that dont have much body work are Red Line cars and Orange Line cars. However are 1924 and 51 cars need more body work to restore them. So 35 years is a good age for a subway car, but structure wise it has to do with enviorment and types of materials used to build the subway cars.

Thanks mattster you got my point I was just expanding on what efin said.

The rail industry considers 30 years to be the typical lifespan for passenger equipment.

Those 01400s and 015/1600s should have been replaced with those 01800s. I think the 01800s are and will be the best, like someone else I know. I won't say who, but he likes the 01800s and new buses and the new Blue Line cars.