• Tolling US-422, the R6 Extension and Public Input at DVRPC

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by Clearfield
 
What is lacking is concensus.

* The railfan community is fighting over which projects to endorse
* The politicians are fighting over whether to have 'less government' or 'no government'
* No sitting politician will side with any project that even appears to increase taxes or fees
* No political candidate will side with any project that even appears to increase taxes or fees

The same gridlock we see in congress will continue on our roads until we start to see bridge closings due to structural failures. Then it will get worse.

Is it any surprise that we are where we are today?
  by Clearfield
 
amtrakowitz wrote:
Clearfield wrote:What is lacking is consensus
Actually, what is lacking is leadership. Consensus is not necessary.
In the absence of true leadership, I'll take consensus any day. We have neither.

I just wish that politicians would do their jobs instead of worring about keeping them.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
There's leadership. There's definitely leadership. The county planners and commissioners (at least Hoeffel) have stepped up and said that the 422plus intermodal project is important enough they're willing to fund it locally rather than waiting for Harrisburg and Washington to send money.

If that's not leadership, what are you waiting for?
  by bikentransit
 
Its hardly intermodal. Hoeffel already said they can do it without the train. This is at best a highway expansion project, and that's all the Philly area ever seems to get. You guys got alot of road projects going on, but no rail projects. If there's no political will to fix that problem, then its all moot.
  by John Scott, PA-TEC
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote: There's leadership. There's definitely leadership. The county planners and commissioners (at least Hoeffel) have stepped up and said that the 422plus intermodal project is important enough they're willing to fund it locally rather than waiting for Harrisburg and Washington to send money.

If that's not leadership, what are you waiting for?
That's not leadership. That's followership. And consensus? The consensus is that this project is hopeless, pointless, and dead on arrival. Only an outgoing commissioner and a few "planners" think otherwise.

Leadership would be explaining to the public that no highway expansion project out to Berks County is going to decrease traffic in King of Prussia. None. Period. Not one person has explained how building more lanes on 422 will slow the rampant development that ultimately got us in this situation in the first place. Nobody has explained why a rational human being would ride 2 hours a day all the way from Wyomissing to some high-paying job in Conshohocken, instead of just moving there and walking to work. Not one person has explained how an expansion of 422, if successful, wouldn't completely undermine ridership and sap either SEPTA or some tollpayers with a railroad with 3% farebox recovery.

The best thing to do at a time like this, when money is tight, data is lacking, leadership is non-existent, and "planning" is really a game of pin-the-sprawl-on-the-map, is to do NOTHING until we have a real plan.

Tell me why we REALLY have to do something on 422 in a recession, and how you think that proposal will improve people's lives.
  by CComMack
 
John Scott, PA-TEC wrote:Nobody has explained why a rational human being would ride 2 hours a day all the way from Wyomissing to some high-paying job in Conshohocken, instead of just moving there and walking to work. Not one person has explained how an expansion of 422, if successful, wouldn't completely undermine ridership and sap either SEPTA or some tollpayers with a railroad with 3% farebox recovery.
I don't know why rational people live in Berks County, or really anywhere beyond Royersford, and drive to jobs, high-paying or otherwise, in Conshohocken, but clearly some do, since none of us are hallucinating the current traffic on 422. I don't let my lack of understanding cloud my ability to recognize the reality they create. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dream't of in your philosophy, or mine. If and when this train runs, people will use it commute from Pottstown and Reading to Conshohocken. Others will use it to commute from Manayunk to Phoenixville. I guarantee that these things will happen; the only question is in what order of magnitude. People will take the jobs they have access to, in this economy. Sometimes they will move to be closer to those jobs; this often takes some amount of time. Sometimes, they don't move. Ask me about my commute from Philadelphia to Delaware, sometime.
The best thing to do at a time like this, when money is tight, data is lacking, leadership is non-existent, and "planning" is really a game of pin-the-sprawl-on-the-map, is to do NOTHING until we have a real plan.

Tell me why we REALLY have to do something on 422 in a recession, and how you think that proposal will improve people's lives.
Asserting that "money is tight" is an absurdity, given that we are talking about a proposal to toll a well-traveled highway, which is as close to a license to print money as you will ever see in the United States.

I applaud your efforts to improve what you see as one flawed plan, but there are three, mostly separable components, one of which (tolling 422) is urgent and can be done quickly, one of which (restoring rail service) is important and should be done as soon as is practical, and the third (expanding 422) I doubt will ever be a good idea, something you should probably not be surprised to learn that I agree with you on. But PA-TEC seems to have taken the tack of, instead of separating the highway expansion out so that it can be killed, either separating the rail component out like a lamb to the slaughter, or killing the entire package. I find this bewildering.

As for why we are doing this in a recession, the announcement may have escaped your notice that Reading now has the highest poverty rate in the United States. 422 as it exists today does not seem to be giving the unemployed of Reading much access to the healthier job markets of KoP/Conshohocken/Valley Forge. As you pointed out, that's a very long schlep, and even on subsidised transit, it's not cheap, but it's a start. And while Reading's problems grow, I don't think I can look the people there in the eye and tell them that they have to wait even longer so that we have a comprehensive collection of ramp counts before we start. But that's me.
  by John Scott, PA-TEC
 
CComMack wrote:Reading now has the highest poverty rate in the United States. 422 as it exists today does not seem to be giving the unemployed of Reading much access to the healthier job markets of KoP/Conshohocken/Valley Forge.
Unfortunately, the proposed train doesn't serve the KOP or Valley Forge job markets. This region has yet to show any significant bus-train-bus or walk-train-bus usage, and even if it did, a simple bus from Reading to various business parks in Valley Forge would be faster and far cheaper, and I'm no fan of buses. I could go on about CC being the only significant job center accessible by train as well.

PA-TEC is not opposed to any single part of this proposal, when properly implemented. We support toll-funded enhancements to 422 as long as the taxpayer-funded existing parts remain FREE - for example tolled "Escape Lanes" to allow quicker exiting for those willing to pay a monthly fee. We support an intercity rail line, operated by a competent, rail-focused intercity provider (which at the moment would be Amtrak). However, in our proposal, we suggested continuing the line to the airport, providing long-haul amenities such as restrooms, and setting fares and frequency accordingly, NOT setting it up as a commuter line.

Finally, we oppose directly linking tolls and transit in all but a few places, notably river crossings, because it sets a precedent that will invariably doom transit's chances of getting dedicated funding. If this scheme succeeds, a precedent will be set that all future transit projects should be coupled with a road expansion and a toll. Do we have to toll 309 to get Quakertown built? Or Route 1 in Media to get the Wawa extension finished?

So you make some good points, but there shouldn't be anything bewildering here. We see this particular bundled proposal as a public policy disaster, a planning failure to address a generation of planning failures, and a political land grab.
  by zebrasepta
 
More news on the 422 tolling
http://timesherald.com/articles/2011/10 ... =fullstory
“We heard the public loud and clear, and we realize tolling may not be the best option for funding 422 at this time,” Barry Seymour, the executive director of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, said in a prepared statement announcing the release of the final version of the study.
  by Hacker
 
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=337240
When the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission suggested tolling a 25-mile stretch of Route 422 from the Berks County line to Valley Forge to help fund much-needed repairs of the road, the public reacted swiftly and strongly.

At a recent public forum on the topic, held at Pope John Paul II High School in Upper Providence Township, Montgomery County, local residents lashed at out the plan. They complained that tolling was unfair, and that a related plan to extend a rail line from Norristown to Wyomissing is unneeded.

Those residents can now rest a little easier - at least for the time being.

Officials at the DVRPC announced Wednesday that they are putting the tolling plan on the back burner.

Barry Seymour, DVRPC executive director, said a funding proposal by the governor's Transportation Funding Advisory Commission may result in increased state funding for transportation infrastructure.
Merged this post into this thread, and trimmed the length of the quote. Please do not quote entire articles, only enough to get the gist. Interested readers can follow the helpfully provided link. -ed
  by AlexC
 
Deleted off topic Route 15 posts. Start a new thread if you want to discuss -ed