The super short Capital Limited and others

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:42 pm Something like this?

They have the right idea, but... it's basically four round trips of the LSL to NYC. I would connect that with similar trip CLE to HAR, so folks can transfer to a Keystone and reach DC with a second transfer (although it would be two round trips CLE-HAR to add to the PGH-PHL-NYP Pennsylvanian's two round trips coming up next year).

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:17 am
Lets not break up existing service.

I don't think of it as "broken up". You have the Capital LImited #30(9) leaving Chicago on Friday February 9 at 1840, scheduled for arrival in Washington at 1305 on Saturday February 10. That's 19 hours total time.

Why not leave Chicago at 0800 on Friday, stop in Pitt at 1800, layover, then leave Pitt at 0800 Saturday for DC, and at 1600. Right now a hotel on the north shore is $199/night. Fare a few weeks out is $161 coach and $888 sleeper, so this makes essential transportation more accessible with a comfy bed for all. You are looking at maybe $350 for coach ticket and hotel.

Meanwhile, Amtrak can use 4-8 Amfleet II and a couple lounges and alleviate the Superliner shortage elsewhere.

The Capital was just one example, so I didn't mean to shorten the topic to just that train. They could make the CofNO a day train again, as Ron pointed out it once was. This would mean the KY/TN/MS parts of the route are much more viable.

You have some other options, too. The Starlight is really a day train from Bay Area to LA and a night train to Seattle. The Sunset is a day train b/w Houston and New Orleans. Why not run a daily Horizon/Amfleet train on that segment and meet the Superliners in either Houston or San Antonio, sparing the need to run them an extra two days to NOLA and back?

Many of these ideas actually lead to better service, not worse service! Daily coaches NOLA-HOU. Daytime service on the entire City. Daytime service from Chicago to Pennsylvania. You could even stagger the Pennsylvanian departure a few hours before or after the eastern Capital so there are two differnet frequencies to the east coast from Pitt.

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:38 pm I don't think of it as "broken up". You have the Capital LImited #30(9) leaving Chicago on Friday February 9 at 1840, scheduled for arrival in Washington at 1305 on Saturday February 10. That's 19 hours total time.

Why not leave Chicago at 0800 on Friday, stop in Pitt at 1800, layover, then leave Pitt at 0800 Saturday for DC, and at 1600. Right now a hotel on the north shore is $199/night. Fare a few weeks out is $161 coach and $888 sleeper, so this makes essential transportation more accessible with a comfy bed for all. You are looking at maybe $350 for coach ticket and hotel.

Okay, I'm with you on theory there, but lets take into consideration that Amtrak, NS, and the state of PA are going through with a 2nd Pennsylvanian run. That's going to fill the two existing layover tracks. The Capitol Limited will need the pass-through track closest to the station for the 2300 to-Chicago and 0500 to-DC stops. NS is building a second freight main line through the station, so that's two tracks. To provide additional layover capacity, you'll need to get a fourth passenger track ready and able to be accessed....

...or you can just run the train through like it was a 2nd round trip of the Capitol Limited and arrive at 0600 in DC, get food at Union Station (plenty of options, but no Johnny Rockets and pancakes anymore) and plenty of time to catch a train or a subway to your final destination. Hmmm, l like that option better.

As an aside: I don't know if you've actually been in Pittsburgh Union Station. It... really can use an upgrade of the waiting area. I want to say "Amshack" but we had that at BWI for a while and this is a bit worse...

Meanwhile, Amtrak can use 4-8 Amfleet II and a couple lounges and alleviate the Superliner shortage elsewhere.

The Capital was just one example, so I didn't mean to shorten the topic to just that train. They could make the CofNO a day train again, as Ron pointed out it once was. This would mean the KY/TN/MS parts of the route are much more viable.

You have some other options, too. The Starlight is really a day train from Bay Area to LA and a night train to Seattle. The Sunset is a day train b/w Houston and New Orleans. Why not run a daily Horizon/Amfleet train on that segment and meet the Superliners in either Houston or San Antonio, sparing the need to run them an extra two days to NOLA and back?

Many of these ideas actually lead to better service, not worse service! Daily coaches NOLA-HOU. Daytime service on the entire City. Daytime service from Chicago to Pennsylvania. You could even stagger the Pennsylvanian departure a few hours before or after the eastern Capital so there are two differnet frequencies to the east coast from Pitt.

All good ideas, to be honest. But lets make sure we get the capacity at the stations in first (like I mentioned above).

That's three nights laying over, not one night, to travel from Raleigh to Kansas City, which is a round trip I made regularly (now I live where my trip would start in Washington DC). In the current schedule, I would catch the Silver Star in the morning in Raleigh, change to the Capitol Limited, sleep through on the train, change in Chicago, and arrive in Kansas City late in the evening of the second day of travel.

Under your proposal, I catch a train in Raleigh, layover in a hotel in Washington, take a train to Pittsburgh, layover there, catch a train to Chicago, layover there, and then make it to Kansas City late in the evening of the second day of travel, or take double the travel time.

This seems to me to be similar to the other no-sleeper/no-diner proposals: basically an end to any concept of a national network served by Amtrak (the Pittsburgh to Chicago route is so short that Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and/or Illinois would need to decide to fund it unless Congress decided to federally subsidize routes shorter than 750 miles).

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:38 pm You have some other options, too. The Starlight is really a day train from Bay Area to LA and a night train to Seattle. The Sunset is a day train b/w Houston and New Orleans. Why not run a daily Horizon/Amfleet train on that segment and meet the Superliners in either Houston or San Antonio, sparing the need to run them an extra two days to NOLA and back?

Mr. Dunville has a meritorious point. I would have thought that during the Anderson years, something resembling what is outlined would have moved forth.

If Amtrak is in the transportation business, as distinct from experiential, truncating the existing Starlight would have made sense. The train, LA-Oakland, is simply towing about too many cars - Sleepers, Diners, Lounges - not directed towards transportation.

Possibly such a truncated train could have been routed via the SP Peninsula line into 3rd & Townsend again providing direct service to SF. Those desiring to journey for transportation would use the existing San Joaquin bus-rail service up the Central Valley connecting with the Starlight wherever the Bay Area connection is made.

Continuing, lest we forget that the "new kid on the block" - Brightline - is "not exactly" too concerned about experiential sightseeing. While I acknowledge, having been down there more times than I can count over the years, and in all parts of the state, Florida is simply a "scenic zero". Those around here who have "taken the joyride" (as I will in about two weeks), likely know that their car will more likely than not be shrink wrapped promoting whatever. Supposedly the shrink wrap, existing on passenger trains worldwide nowadays (good reason why the Amtrak Airo sets are smooth sided), does not impair a passenger's view, but you couldn't prove that by me.

Finally, the Meadows to Little House on the Ranch, Brightline West, does have more sightseeing opportunities, but safe bet those cars will also be shrink wrapped plugging whoever is willing to pony up.

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:07 pm This seems to me to be similar to the other no-sleeper/no-diner proposals: basically an end to any concept of a national network served by Amtrak (the Pittsburgh to Chicago route is so short that Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and/or Illinois would need to decide to fund it unless Congress decided to federally subsidize routes shorter than 750 miles).

RW: I would NOT call the Pittsburgh-Chicago Amtrak route "short" by any means...
The traditional PRR Broadway Limited route between Pittsburgh Penn Station and Chicago Union Station
via Fort Wayne, IN was 468.4 miles (before the re-route to the former B&O in 1990)...For the record this is
slightly longer then the Boston-Washington Northeast Corridor (456 miles) and the entire length of the NYS
Empire Corridor from NYC to Niagara Falls (464 miles)...The Capital Limited route via Alliance and Cleveland
is 476.4 miles PGH-CHI...Ohio and Indiana would be the two states that would subsidize rail service on this
route with Pennsylvania's only stop being Pittsburgh...The west end of the line is entirely within the City of
Chicago after entering Illinois...Yes - I agree that there has to be definitions about funding rail routes of 750
miles or less with Federal and/or State subsidy partnerships such as the Capital Limited route...MACTRAXX

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:07 pm the Pittsburgh to Chicago route is so short that Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and/or Illinois would need to decide to fund it unless Congress decided to federally subsidize routes shorter than 750 miles).

So this is where I look at the letter of the law and nowhere does it say that the timetable or elapsed time traveled for the train has to be a certain length to trigger state funding requirements under PRIIA. Just the route map. So as long as the railroad considers 30(X) to just have a bigass layover at Pitt, it's the same trian schedule, it's one ticket for the route, it's one train name. As long as 30(X) does not become 32(X+1) between Pitt and Washington the next day it is not considered two short routes, it is one long route with a big layover.

While there are currently no layovers that long in the regular schedule, the Eagle lays over in San Antonio for two hours plus and the Portland Builder sits in Spokane for an hour.

So if congress decides this is a problem, they would need to drop what they are doing and pass a new Amtrak bill, which would open a lot of issues for negotiation such as funding, trackage rights payments, timetable priorities, 750mile route limits, and layover maximum length etc... It's unlikely they do that.

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:07 pm That's three nights laying over, not one night, to travel from Raleigh to Kansas City, which is a round trip I made regularly (now I live where my trip would start in Washington DC). In the current schedule, I would catch the Silver Star in the morning in Raleigh, change to the Capitol Limited, sleep through on the train, change in Chicago, and arrive in Kansas City late in the evening of the second day of travel.

AFter thinking about this for a while, you're right. It is a bad deal for Raleigh-Kansas City passengers.

But how many people between Toledo and Connelsville now have options that weren't once open because the entire middle of the train was late at night/early morning? If we accept for a minute the wisdom that people like 3-5 hour trips, it opens up scads of potential journeys that are not available on either the Lakeshore or Capital because both run late at night.

In other words, with no additional funding and probably a lot less losses (sleepers and diners are no more), you open a lot more opportunity for travelers on routes that are already running.

Imagine this if you will:

Blue: Lakeshore west
Red: Capital west
Orange: Capital connector
Aqua: Lakeshore connector
Purple: Lakeshore east and Empire
Pink: Capital East
Green: NEC

Under this scenario, both the Cap and Lakeshore start in Chicago, run to Pitt or Buffalo, layover the night, then continue east as two-daytime-only schedule. They leave Chicago a few hours apart.

Upon arriving in Cleveland, there is a short connector train for both the Cap and Lakeshore. When the Cap leaves for Pitt, the Cap Connector goes to Buffalo and connects with a Empire train. When the Lakeshore leaves to Buff, a connector leaves for Pitt and connects with a second Pennsylvanian that they are supposedly doing.

The entire Chicago-to-east coast trunk could be a network of interconnecting day trains that would be easier on passengers, the federal budget, and the host railroads.

Have to challenge this assumption of day trains only is cheaper. It takes more equipment to move passengers the same distance among other items, Example for the Capitol needs 4 train sets CHI <> WASH vs 3 now. Then you have the necessity that there will be daytime absolute work windows shutting down the route for maintenance. Such as happens every Jan and FEB by NS south of Atlanta. IMO a sleeper's revenue per car is much more than a coach revenue.

Once Amtrak gets enough equipment that the train sets run 11 - 14 revenue cars then the cost per passenger for the diner and lounge is much less. As far as the midnight station problems running at least 2 trains ~~ 12 hours apart on a route will solve most of those problems with a few exceptions.

Have to challenge this assumption of day trains only is cheaper. It takes more equipment to move passengers the same distance among other items, Example for the Capitol needs 4 train sets CHI <> WASH vs 3 now. Then you have the necessity that there will be daytime absolute work windows shutting down the route for maintenance. Such as happens every Jan and FEB by NS south of Atlanta. IMO a sleeper's revenue per car is much more than a coach revenue.

Once Amtrak gets enough equipment that train sets can run at their potential of 11 - 14 revenue cars then the cost per passenger for the diner and lounge is much less. As far as the midnight station problems running at least 2 trains ~~ 12 hours apart on a route will solve most of those problems with a few exceptions.

Would I want to ride a day only route?. Almost always no way. Much as hate it would fly. We can use Auto Train with its many sleepers, coaches, diners & lounges as being reported as revenue positive.

@Tadman: Your map proposal would have New England losing direct Midwest service. Reportedly late Senator
Ted Kennedy was a driving force in keeping through service on 448/449.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:36 pm @Tadman: Your map proposal would have New England losing direct Midwest service. Reportedly late Senator Ted Kennedy was a driving force in keeping through service on 448/449.

Mr. R36, no doubt there was political influence in Amtrak’s decision to restore the through Coach and Sleeper BOS-CHI after the Gunnmen got rid of it.

It is not as if passengers needed to be rousted at 0-dark-30 as they would if the 1-21 or 7-27.and v.v. cars were eliminated. It also forces the Boston Mechanical Department to inventory parts to work on a bad ordered Viewliner and the outside contractor commissary to supply linens and possibly menu items not offered on the Regional and Acela trains (Downeaster I think has a separate commissary and non-Agreement staffing).

Further, the Commonwealth of Tax appears to be on a path to restoring passenger trains to as good as any line. This could even include the New Haven Pittsfield-Canaan and the B&M through Hoosac Tunnel. For the B&A, they surely have four a day in mind, one of which m could readily connect with the Lake Shore under Mr. Dunville's proposal.

I think what too many people are missing is that the future of Amtrak isn't carrying people from Raleigh to Kansas City in a sleeper.

The future of Amtrak is about carrying people on day trips about 150-300 miles in length. It's time that the network start to resemble that.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:07 pm Imagine this if you will:

Blue: Lakeshore west
Red: Capital west
Orange: Capital connector
Aqua: Lakeshore connector
Purple: Lakeshore east and Empire
Pink: Capital East
Green: NEC

Under this scenario, both the Cap and Lakeshore start in Chicago, run to Pitt or Buffalo, layover the night, then continue east as two-daytime-only schedule. They leave Chicago a few hours apart.

Ironic that your graphic resembles the original arrow logo....