The future of SEPTA's Push Pulls and EMUs.

That's an interesting point about SEPTA's push-pull set sitting in Trenton, but the electrical power being used in this particular case is Amtrak's. I doubt if there is any easy way for Amtrak to tell if the set is pulling stand-by power (and how many KWH) or not. I don't even know how they bill SEPTA for power; by train mile, and then broken down by the number of MU cars in a set vs. a push-pull set with a motor? Or just a flat fee per month or year?

Now, if that set were sitting in West Trenton, or somewhere else where SEPTA provides its own power and has to account for it's use, dropping the pans would be a great idea.

The problem with storing the p/p sets with the pans down is that they are not very reliable in starting them up especially on cold nights. Too many past failures have required last minute equipment swaps and delays. Been there, done that!!!

For some time now, SEPTA does go out of their way to lower all the pans on the Silverliners sitting in Powelton yard. At the very least, if the AEM-7 needs to run, at least shut the lights off in the coaches, even if the electricity is not alot, light bulbs do cost money. But SEPTA doesent seem to be very cost conscience. They like leaving things like lights on, such as all the El stations on a bright and sunny July day. Same thing with buses parked in the depot, or during layovers.

Lucius Kwok wrote:Cons for EMU: 6. The longer the train, the bigger the cost disadvantage of EMU trains

6. The longer the train, the bigger the cost disadvantage of EMU trains: Conversely, the shorter the train, the better for MU operation, especially when you have 2 or 3 car trains. This depends on how much ridership grows over the next few years. The limited ridership data I have (for Delaware Co.) shows ridership dipped in 2001 and 2002, but improved in 2003.

Maybe to a point, but not after you get to such long trains where you need two locomotives... MU's also provide for LONGER trains than PP, not just shorter.

RDGAndrew wrote: I was in Trenton on Sunday and noticed SEPTA's push-pull consist laying over for the weekend. What struck me was that the pan was up, and the whole consist was humming like it was ready to roll. What gives?

I was also in Trenton station on Sunday and noticed lots of noise coming from the Bombardier coaches, presumably from air compressors and air conditioning.
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I went back and checked a set of photos I took during the last threat of service cuts. It was a sunny Sunday in the spring, and I wanted a shot of the push-pull set laying over in Warminster. Sure enough, the pan is up on that AEM7 also. AEM7, I appreciate your comments on the difficulty of restarting in cold weather, but I wonder why the pan would need to be up on a warm weekend. I guess it's not the specific pantograph issue that bugs me so much as the statement that SEPTA has done absolutely everything in its power (get it?) to reduce expenses and yet stuff like this is so common.

Idling equipment has got to be a huge drain on SEPTA's operating pocketbook, and its not just the railroad division.

-Buses idle at depots for hours at a time, on warm days
-lights are on round the clock at outdoor MFL stations
-The escalators run at 1234 24/7, even at 2am!

Using West Trenton yard as an example, all the equipment lays over with pans up at all times, EXCEPT for the cars they store on the Runner track (outside the sound barrier). Pans on those cars are dropped (as per timetable special instructions).

The sound barrier and the rule on dropping the pans on the runner came about in response to sudden rise of complaints about train noise by residents.

After a time on standby, the AEM-7's and the ALP44 units go into a "layover" mode where the blowers run at a much lower sound level. And as for keeping pans up, it's good to keep the AC/ going and cars cool in summer, or nice and toasty in the winter. The train crews don't come on duty early enough to allow a train to warm up or cool down to passenger comfort levels.

Also, in winter.....the equipment is a bear to restart on cold mornings. I've seen the Bombardier set annulled many a winter morning due to the locomotive not wanting to operate (when the pans had been dropped overnight).

Pans are dropped on all equipment at Powelton Yard from Friday PM to Sunday AM, as nobody is on duty there on Saturdays.

Joe

Just thought I'd mention that I noticed SEPTA is now dropping the pans on the AEM-7'/ALP-44 during the daytime layover at Wayne/Penn Coach yard. I'm assuming they can do it there because someone is around in the case that they get cranky when the go to start them up?

The warmer weather might also have something to do with it.

Right on both counts. Powelton is staffed Sunday evening through Friday evening, and Roberts is staffed 24/7, so someone is there to goose an AEM-7 along if needed.

Still...the mere fact that in winter, they've had a habit of getting cranky when being restarted from a "pan down" situation doesn't help my confidence in maintenance practices.

It just doesn't look good when several AEM-7's and the ALP44 have had failures on the road a number of times in January and February, causing multiple train annullments, while Amtrak manages a constant AEM-7 availability rating in the 94 to 97 percent range....

On a sorta related note, how does push-pull versus MU affect ice buildup during winter storms? Maybe this is a dumb observation, but I know if you look at pictures of Pennsy trains operating during ice storms, you see that all units have pans up for sleet cutting. Would this make MUs better at clearing ice due to the multiple pans?

choess wrote:On a sorta related note, how does push-pull versus MU affect ice buildup during winter storms? Maybe this is a dumb observation, but I know if you look at pictures of Pennsy trains operating during ice storms, you see that all units have pans up for sleet cutting. Would this make MUs better at clearing ice due to the multiple pans?

Simply put: Yes.

Also, there are provisions on Amtrak and NJT for "double pan" orders when both pans on the leading motor would be raised for ice breaking purposes.