The decline of sleeper trains

Second W2KB above. I recall meetings at Chicago which were held in a hotel at O'Hare Airport, where sandwiches were sent into the meeting room at lunchtime. Except for those based in Chicago, that was the closest anybody got to Union Station.

Back in the days of CPR "Atlantic" service, a friend and I traveled from Montreal to Moncton through Maine without Customs interruption. The sleeping cars were sealed at the border. Coach passengers were presumably interviewed at intermediate stops while we slept.

The same applied on NYC trains between New York and Detroit via the Michigan Central between Buffalo and Detroit through Ontario; I believe the cars (sleepers and coaches) were simply closed off to prevent boarding or alighting at stations in Canada, passengers for those points being handled in other cars. Since doors and traps were opened by the train crew it would have been easy to maintain control. Since conditions nowadays are very different from "did you acquire anything while you were in Canada?" I don't know whether either country would agree even to "sealed" cars today.

Add to airline the rise of workstation video teleconferencing. What once required a business trip is now a 2 hour event at your desk. That further reduces the need for travel, let alone overnight rail.

Until Amtrak gets a daily availability of its full number of sleepers we have no idea how much more demand there will be for sleeper cars. That does not even take into account addition route and new rout additions.

No, I do not think sleeper travel will ever return to previous time around WW=2

I wonder how much overnight sleeper accommodations declined from traffic that shifted to reclining seat coaches by budget travelers who previous would use section accomodations? Remember most coaches were not reclining seats and used by people who only traveled for shorter distances.

urr304 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:22 am I wonder how much overnight sleeper accommodations declined from traffic that shifted to reclining seat coaches by budget travelers who previous would use section accomodations? Remember most coaches were not reclining seats and used by people who only traveled for shorter distances.

It was more that airline coach saved time for the organization and money on the travel than anything else. Why be gone 40 hours LA to Chicago each way plus the meeting time when the trip could be done afternoon of day 1, evening flight and hotel in Chicago, meeting day two, fly home day two evening.

I was thinking of the eastern overnights where many who would have bought a section were satisfied with a reclining seat coach.

urr304 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:45 am I was thinking of the eastern overnights where many who would have bought a section were satisfied with a reclining seat coach.

There's a problem, and many fellow convention folk were facing this: fellow passengers of all ages. Yes, including young kids who wouldn't settle down.

I've had many of a fellow mention that they did coach overnight this past weekend... and that next time, they'll ether fly in or take a sleeper. Why? You are not guaranteed that coach would be quiet overnight... or that folks would be going end-to-end. So while I was having problems crashing in bed (or even setting it up), others were having trouble sleeping in coach.

Could they of wanted a reclining seat a-la higher end airlines? Or maybe a NightJet style berth? Sure. There's a few of us who would go for that. But we don't have that yet in the US.

Myrtone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:20 amSo in that case did passengers of the Montrealer get woken up at the border to present passports and go through customs?

I rode Northbound in Sleeper on the Montrealer in Feb., 1992. At that time the trip time was longer because the train detoured through New London, Connecticut and Palmer, Massachusetts, but the border crossing was after dawn and arrival in Montreal was well before 10 a.m. The Sleeping car Porter distributed Canadian Immigration forms before I went to sleep. Back then, Passports weren't required for everyone leaving the United States, and Canada was happy with my Voter's Registration card.

Myrtone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:33 pmBut planes do not travel between city centres, intercity trains do.

A highly overstated claim that is meaningless to the majority of America that does not live in city centers.

Not to mention if we use the two largest metro areas that I am closest to, more people actually live closer to the airport than the major Amtrak station. And with so many companies not being, having relocated out of, or are seriously considering relocating out of the city center, a downtown train station is meaningless for the majority of business travellers.

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:15 pm

Myrtone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:33 pmBut planes do not travel between city centres, intercity trains do.

A highly overstated claim that is meaningless to the majority of America that does not live in city centers.

Not to mention if we use the two largest metro areas that I am closest to, more people actually live closer to the airport than the major Amtrak station. And with so many companies not being, having relocated out of, or are seriously considering relocating out of the city center, a downtown train station is meaningless for the majority of business travellers.

Not only that, airlines have built airports around the immediate population center.
Los Angeles:
LAX
Burbank
Long Beach
Ontario
John Wayne Orange County

What has Amtrak done? Same stations since 1971…oh, wait, Amtrak eliminated the Pasadena stop.

Amtrak needs to serve its customers

Amtrak stoped using the Pasadena station (which it always leased from the Santa Fe Pacific Realty Co) when the Santa Fe railroad sold the right of way to Los Angeles County to be rebuilt as part of the LA Metro Pasadena line. How do you propose Amtrak should have handled that decision other than how it did?

BTW:
LAX was built by the City of Los Angeles and opened in 1928.
Bob Hope Airport (Burbank) was built in the 1920s by United Airlines and Boeing, opening in 1930, and after other owners became publicly owned in 1978.
Long Beach airport was built by the City of Long Beach in 1923, opening for passenger traffic in 1941.
Ontario Airport was built by the city of Ontario in 1941 with scheduled passenger traffic stating in 1949.
John Wayne Airport (Orange County) was first used as a landing strip in 1923, was purchased by Orange County in 1939, with scheduled passenger traffic starting (as best I can tell) in the 1950s.

LA Union Station was built by the City of Los Angeles, opening in 1939, was sold to the Santa Fe, SP, and UP, eventually sold by the railroads to the Santa Fe Pacific Realty Co in 1989, which eventually sold it to LA County in 2011. It was only after the station became publicly owned that Amtrak was able to begin serious improvements to serve its customers there (such as opening the Metropolitan Lounge in 2013).

Other than United Airlines being involved in building the airport in Burbank, no airline has built an airport in the LA area, and (other than Burbank) all the airports in the LA area were publicly owned by local governments prior by WW II, and all had passenger traffic by the 1950s.

In these contexts, it seems Amtrak can only serve its customers if local governments are willing to allow it (and don't just entirely compete against it).

RandallW wrote:In these contexts, it seems Amtrak can only serve its customers if local governments are willing to allow it (and don't just entirely compete against it).

And yet, every "Amtrak" station within 500 miles of me is "Amtrak" in name only, but a fully owned service provided by a City or State government, or a transit agency. Funded with local tax dollars for its rehabilitation (not Amtrak funds).

Meanwhile, Amtrak's apologist fans are smiling with glee at Greyhound's downfall, unwilling to provide the same terms to a like public service organization dedicated to the safe and reliable transportation of people... Call me, Amtrak bois, when you demand every single Greyhound station be bought by local governments and then rehabbed, just like every "Amtrak" station has been. National Historic Register listing as well.

Be careful what you ask for, Amtrakfans. Local governments have been bending over backwards for Amtrak...

There is one intercity bus route I use somewhat regularly (~ once a year), that is two busses, and with the exception of one stop (out of 9), all stops are publicly owned or a sign post on a curb, and one of the busses is fully subsidized by the state of PA. Virginia is contracting with MegaBus to operate four routes in the state

BTW, one of the Virginia routes includes a non-stop bus from Richmond Main Street Station to Washington Union Station (both served by Amtrak) that is 41 minutes longer than the slowest Amtrak service between those stations. And, since as far as I can tell, unless somehow compelled to use a publicly owned bus terminal (often close to downtown or other other transit services), or still getting massive origin traffic from the old station, Greyhound seems to have been doing a bang up job of abandoning older station for new stations near Interstate highways that aren't served by public transit.