The day after April 1, 1976...

Was the LV west of Sayre shut down upon takeover by Conrail in 1976? I was under the impression that one or two trains may have been scheduled down the LV before it was removed (largely when, 1981)?


-otto-

Otto,
the LV west from Sayre continued to be used north (compass north, timetable west) out of Sayre to VanEtten, and north to Ithaca.
and is still in use today.

the generally believed theory on the LV mainline from VanEtten junction west to Buffalo is that the last regular freight ran over that section on the LV's last day, 3-31-76, and that Conrail never, ever, ran a revenue freight over the line..the last train was the scrap train to pull up the rails.
thats what I have always read anyway..

Scot

Well.....

I guess it depends on what you mean by "train" or "freight" or.....

The Sayre to Buffalo main was intact after 4/1/76.

The local job out of Manchester ended and was replaced by essentially the same job but based out of Geneva. I'm just guessing, but I would assume something came out of somewhere to handle P&L junction and environs.

There was at least one light engine (or engines) move to rebalance power that traversed the Sayre-Buffalo main after 4/1/76. There may have been more - I don't know. As long as the signals were still on and qualified crews were available, there's no reason not to. No sense clogging up the Erie with non-revenue stuff.

Don't forget the clean-up trains, also. Manchester yard was full of bad order cars. I believe (and someone help me on this) they went south (toward Sayre) for scrapping. Lord knows what else was picked up along the way.

Again, this is just a guess, but I would assume Conrail issued a general order or similar ending service between certain points, probably end of April or May.

This all happened 28 years ago so my recollection is a little foggy, but shortly after C-day, I recall seeing an eb freight at Bergen (between Batavia and Rochester on the ex-NYC) being pulled by 3 LV U23Bs. I assumed that it was an LV train being routed from Buffalo to Sayre by way of the water level route to Lyons, where it would go south to the EL at Corning, then east to Waverly on the EL, and then to Sayre on the LV connector. At Sayre, it would resume its traditional LV route to Allentown, etc. But maybe I'm making all this up...

How about dates for certain sections of the Auburn Branch?

I believe these certain sections never saw a train after the last LV train March 31st-

Sayre-Owego (track pulled when?)
Freeville-East Ithaca (ruined earlier in the 70s)
Freeville-Cortland (track pulled 1978?)

Any other sections?

Here's a website of mine-
http://www.joshuakblay.com/lehightoday.htm

Happy Holidays!

So, aside from clean-up moves, nothing scheduled ran from Tifft-Sayre after 3-31-76... and the main sat more or less idle until it was sold or lifted. Interesting! I think it's interesting that a whole mainline can just up and disappear like that- but then again, it happened to the Erie, the B&O, the Pennsy...

-otto-

As I recall from the old forum, there were locals occasionally between Buffalo and Batavia up until sometime in 1978. In February of that year we had quite a bit of snow and at the LV grade crossings west of Batavia you could see that trains had been running. I don't know what type or how large these trains were bu they were enough to keep the supstantial show drifts plowed.

By April 1979 the rails east and west of Batavia were gone. I have a few pictures waiting to be scanned in if anyone is interested.

Parts of the LV Mainline were not abandoned and are still in service. In particular, what is the story behind the Ontario Central Railroad, running between Victor and Shortsville? How did this piece of the LV Main survive?

Otto – As far as I am aware nothing moved on the LV rails between Rochester Jct and P&L Jct after March 31, 1976. My wife and I hiked the section between Wadsworth (Genesee River trestle) and P&L Jct several times that spring - the first time on Sat April 3. We noticed increasingly rusty rails on each successive outing - consistent with a complete cessation of train movements.

Curiously (or perhaps not...) the continuously lit block signal #3881 near Maxwell Station Rd in Caledonia continued to display a red aspect for several weeks after April 1. It only went dark after becoming the target of a gun-wielding “sportsman”. ...FB

The LV local from P&L (I believe) outlawed at Quaker 3-31-76 so technically it was an LV train when it went east afterward. As far as I know nothing moved from Buffalo after the last day - I know of at least one speeder trip from Rochester Junction almost to Buffalo (unauthorized of course) and understand the rails were rusty and crossings obstructed with dirt.

CR was designated as the operator of the Geneva-Victor segment under a 5-year program of subsidy to continue operations. About 1977 or 1978, a connection was built between the ex NYC Auburn road just east of Shortsville, allowing trains to run the Auburn Road to that point and then access the old LV westward. Once in place, the LV was removed from service and scrapped between Geneva and Shortsville.

Similarly, a connection was made from the LV at Maple Ave Victor, curving south and east and joining the Auburn Road at the Victor Insulator plant. This connection, little more than a quarter mile long, allowed abandonment of several miles from Canandaigua to Maple Ave Victor on the old Auburn Road.

An interesting item occurred one winter day when a plow was used to clear the former LV. The crew left Victor westbound, and the engineer was moving right along toward Rochester Junction. Someone had missed a bulletin somewhere, and they found out the hard way that the track had been removed a quarter mile west of Route 251. When they stopped, all 4 axles of the plow, and three of the engine's 4 axles, were on the ground. OH S**T!

The ONCT took over operations 10-01-79.

Now heres a thought..
The Erie Lackawanna was a "last minute" addition to Conrail.
originally the EL wasnt planned to be a part of CR..
suppose the EL did survive..
the LV still becomes part of Conrail, but the EL does not.

Would Conrail have kept the LV mainline then all the way to Buffalo?
Conrail wouldnt have had the Southern Tier main..
no Conrail between Waverly and Buffalo.
Conrail has Sayre and south, but no southern tier main.

how did the LV mainline to Buffalo factor into early Conrail planning?
before the EL was folded in?

yeah, I know its just pure speculation, becuase it didnt happen but railfans love "what ifs!"
but..it must have been planned in reality by early CR planners..
so that part isnt speculation.
Scot

IIRC the PRR Elmira branch still existed from EL main in Elmira to Himrod Jct so LV trains to/from Buffalo could have still used NYC main to Lyons, NYC south to Himrod Jct, PRR south to EL at Elmira, and LV trackage rights to Waverly/Sayre?

Considering I was 9 years old on "C-Day", I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. Great memories, folks. Keep them coming.

John was not too far off with his speculation. Dug into my "archives" tonight and pulled out a copy of the FINAL SYSTEM PLAN FREIGHT SERVICE LINES OPERATED BY CONRAIL produced by the USRA and dated July 1975. Very strange not to see the EL lines except as trackage rights. As far as the LV goes, on my map the line between Ithaca and Cayuga is severed near Ludlowville. The PRR and NYC lines between Geneva and Watkins Glens were cobbled together to create a through route between Geneva and Corning and then down to Jersey Shore.

The EL is shown between Waverly and Buffalo and is listed as "Conrail Trackage Rights for Overhead Traffic Only" It appears from the map that Conrail intended run from Oak Island straight through to Sayre and then onto Buffalo utilizing a combination LV/EL route.

Some interesting asides: The map shows the ex-Pennsy Wilkes-Barre branch being operated from Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre by CR with a connection to the ex-LV Passenger Main in W-B leading to Pittson (Coxton).

The former Reading line from Harrisburg through Reading and ending in Allentown is shown as a Overhead Trackage Rights line as well.

And surprizingly enough, the LHR is shown as a intact through route from Phillipsburg through Maybrook and onto Poughkeepsie via the bridge. Guess nobody told the USRA about the bridge "accidently" burning!

johnpbarlow wrote:IIRC the PRR Elmira branch still existed from EL main in Elmira to Himrod Jct so LV trains to/from Buffalo could have still used NYC main to Lyons, NYC south to Himrod Jct, PRR south to EL at Elmira, and LV trackage rights to Waverly/Sayre?

The PRR Elmira branch must have gone at least as far as Bellona, because thats where it ends now, end of service is in Penn Yan tho.

Some thoughts on this come to mind.

The last ME-1 was observed stopped at Rush in the wee hours of April 1, 1976. I only presume that it had outlawed. It was late, I was tired and did not stick around although over the years I wish I did.

Rail salvage operations were conducted vicinity of Rochester Junction during fall/winter 1977-1978. Activities at this location were conducted with a Pettibone handler which had capability to move several gondola cars. I personally observed this and have photos of such at Quaker INT. The cars were "interchanged" with CR at Rochester Junction. This salvage was performed by A&K Railroad Materials.

It is my understanding the A&K also did removal between Kendaia and Odessa, NY; in territory that had a lot of welded rail which was sold to the TP&W. Obviously some sort of salvage train would have had to operate over this segment as its the only way you are going to salvage and transport welded rail. Not sure how this came out...via GY or out through Sayre. Odessa to Van Etten Junction remained to service local customers under agreement with CR for a few years longer until it too was retired.

As there was a substantial amount of welded rail west of Batavia I would presume that a salvage train was operated out there as well.

Signals gradually went dark over a period of several months...then one night returning on RT 96 west of Manchester, all the signals at Blacksmith INT were fully lit ...a shocker! ......turns out that CR never filed the necessary paperwork with the FRA to formally remove the signal system from active service and therefore they were ordered to return signals to service. After the paperwork was filed obviously they became dark again once more. Most all signal apparatus was eventually sold by the LV estate to the Boston & Maine.

The LV ran a series of extra trains during February and March which operated from Sayre to Manchester and return in order to extract the voluminous amounts of stored bad order cars that had accumulated over the years. Several of these ran on Sundays. I can only presume the LV ran these east to Naporano or other buyers for scrap as most were old 40' boxcars, two bay coal hoppers, early home built covered hoppers and gons. Some real neat, old exotic stuff. The yard was completely devoid of equipment by the last week of March 1976 as I have a photo taken of rear of NE-1 westward thru the yard with the afternoon sun reflecting of the rails of the empty yard.

Elsewhere on this site I have came across a thread indicating that a train was run east AFTER CONRAIL from Buffalo over the LV with a CNJ and LV unit with additional salvage cars presumably stored in Buffalo. I lived in the area at the time and never saw any evidence to support this ...but I have also learned over the years in this business never to say "never".

There used to be evidence of highrail tire tread marks on the rail during the summer of 1976 and the dispatchers line still worked. The tire marks as it turns out were from a maintainers vehicle which patrolled the line looking for wire defects.

I had later heard that because the former Buffalo Division DS was still at Niagara Junction the wire was still being used to DS CR trains from Sayre east to the Division point in vicinity of Wysox PA. The operator still controlled the territory from his console at Sayre..but under direction of the DS at Niagara Jct. I doubt however that this continued much if at all by the end of the year.

Hope this is of interest.