SEPTA NPT card will be "SEPTA Key"?

nova08 - thanks for the first-hand report. This is the first time I've heard anything about problems with the readers, but your experiences confirm other deficiencies with QTs that SEPTA should have addressed before rolling them out in the first place. Supposedly they will (eventually) remove the restriction that QTs can only be used at the point of purchase; however there's evidently nothing in the pipeline to allow for cheaper bulk purchases - a big hit for organizations that buy tokens in bulk - and SEPTA's explicitly refused to allow transfer privileges which means anyone taking a two-vehicle trip using a QT will need to pay two full fares at the higher cash price. Good for SEPTA's coffers, bad for riders.

Nova and Jeff:

This shows that there is no incentive to use Quick Trip cards as compared to the option that tokens
offer. Having to pay two full cash fares is enough of a problem as it is - not allowing even the option
of purchasing a $1 transfer for a second ride will discourage some from using QT's - me included.

Another thing to note is the fare increase for cash riders that is being implemented by the phase out
of tokens from $2 to $2.50 for what literally is for the same single ride.

As long as the legacy passes - which offer unlimited rides and are not "capped" like the Key is - and
tokens are still available I will continue to use them - right up until their acceptance ends...

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX - You're spot on with your comments. SEPTA's existing fare system is hugely outmoded but they've built so many inconsistencies and inconveniences into the Key that it's going to be more expensive and less flexible than what it replaces. QTs were supposed to be effectively a 1-for-1 functional swap for tokens, but as you noted they actually take away features that made tokens an attractive alternative for anyone who couldn't justify buying a pass.

As for the Key card itself, SEPTA chose (apparently arbitrary) price points that make it ineffective for casual users, because both its initial cost and reload fees equate to multiple-and-a-fraction trips rather than the one token/one trip convenience of tokens. And yet at the same time the Key's shutting off existing revenue streams by being unable to process zone fees on the transit side as well as the $1 senior RRD fare.

It makes me wonder what other hidden "gotchas" will surface once the old alternatives are no longer available.

Everyone:

SEPTA has announced that token sales are gradually being discontinued at RRD stations over the
course of March and April 2018. The use of legacy transpasses look to be in the process of being
phased out in favor of the Key. Bulk sales of tokens and weekly/monthly transpasses to outside
social and/or service organizations will continue.

http://www.septa.org/key/2018-03-token-sales-rrd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At the end of April token sales will end at the SEPTA sales offices in the concourse at 15th Street,
1234 Market Street Lobby, 69th Street, Frankford and Olney Terminals.

These RRD stations will continue to sell tokens until further notice: Queen Lane, Wayne Junction,
Lansdale, Norristown TC, Ardmore, Langhorne and Chester.

From the information that SEPTA is posting it looks like legacy weekly and monthly transpasses
may well be eliminated before tokens are fully phased out.

It will be interesting to find out about how many tokens are still out in circulation in comparison
to their actual total - if it is high it may indicate that SEPTA will need to keep tokens available for
a longer time period. What tokens offer is flexibility that the Key and other pass types do not have.

Eliminating the token is going to increase the fare 50 cents per ride - along with the elimination of
the $1 transfer (which SEPTA has made no mention of - yet) will be a large fare increase for cash
riders that currently still use the option of tokens to save money over the $2.50 cash fare.

What needs to change is that the single ride quick trip card needs to offer at least one transfer to
make the cost worthwhile and be valid for a longer period. Right now there is no incentive to use
them in comparison to what tokens have and continue to offer riders that use them.

As I will again mention I will continue to use tokens and legacy zone passes as long as they remain
available and are accepted for transportation to ride SEPTA. MACTRAXX

The only people impacted here are those who refuse to get the Key, such as yourself. The Key will be cheaper (free transfers) than the tokens, and saves SEPTA a lot of money due to the high cost of physical security around token collection.

AJW (and Everyone):

1-There is no incentive to get and use the Key as long as legacy zone passes - that offer unlimited
rides - remain in use. I use RRD trains for a percentage of my travel which still need these passes.

2-With the use of "caps" on Key use the debate here is how rides are going to be counted against
a limit? In my opinion there should be at least one - maybe two - rides within two hours provided
that the rider uses a different vehicle and/or route. With SEPTA's "hub and spoke" system design
some riders have to use multiple transfers - which will add up if all rides count toward a cap limit.

3-Tokens have an unlimited lifespan and be kept until they are needed and used. There is two
sides to every story here. SEPTA does have costs that are incurred handling and reusing tokens.
Transfers also have costs to print and issue them and then afterwards recycle their paper.
There are also costs - which are probably more - to handling collected cash in any form.
The current RRD fare collection system of tickets, passes and cash collection has its own price.

An interesting compromise was suggested in the past year by a member of DVARP was to use
the Key on transit only and keep the legacy passes and ticket system for the RRD outside of a
move to go to a POP (Proof of Payment) system - which could even have a lower overall cost.
With POP you would then not have need for expensive equipment such as gates in the Center
City RRD stations depending on how it was going to be enforced such as requiring possession
of a valid ticket or pass at platform level or at certain designated areas within stations.

My original question was back when SEPTA began development of the Key was:
"How much money will it cost SEPTA to collect money?"
EVERY type of fare collection system has its costs to use, maintain and secure the system used.

I would like to see the Key succeed - but until this system fully proves itself and legacy passes
are still available that offer incentives such as unlimited rides and "anywhere" weekend use I
will keep using that fare option as long as possible.

In this case "You don't realize what you had until it is gone" best can describe this subject.
Think about it. MACTRAXX

andrewjw wrote:The only people impacted here are those who refuse to get the Key, such as yourself.

That's not the case for everyone. Of course regular riders should be using the Key for all the reasons you cite. I wasn't a true "early adopter" but was in the second wave because it's far easier and faster than having to carry tokens and dollar bills/coins for transfers.

HOWEVER ... the Key is a major step backwards for infrequent riders and for people who don't live near a sales location. Aside from its lack of availability forcing riders outside of core areas to pay the cash fare or its equivalent, the $10 minimums that SEPTA has set for purchase and reload are a major impediment. Tokens were small-d democratic in that anyone - resident, commuter, visitor, whatever - could buy two of them for a single round trip and pay for transfers separately if needed. But the Key's 10-buck price points equate to oddball numbers of round trips: 2.5 without transferring or an even stranger 1.67 trips if they include a transfer. Anyone who's only using SEPTA a small number of times is potentially forced to either pay the higher cash fare or leave unused money on their card. OK, it's not much each time but like the odious on-board RRD surcharge those dollars add up to a huge chunk of "float" for SEPTA as well as leaving a bad taste. SEPTA could *easily* fix this by changing the Key's initial price to be equivalent to a single round trip, exactly as it was with a token two-pack, and by lowering the minimum reload amount to something like $2. There's no rationale at all for a $10 minimum - after all, other systems like DC Metro allow reloading in fractional amounts, let alone whole dollars.

The Key is also less flexible than tokens because it can't be shared. A group riding together, like a family or students, could simply buy tokens in bulk and share them as needed. Now, every person will have to buy their own Key card with all of the disadvantages imposed by the $10 limits. If one person exhausts the balance on their card they can't simply "borrow" from another; they have to buy another ten bucks' worth whether they need it or not.

OK, none of these problems will affect regular riders. But why should SEPTA discourage people who fall outside their definition of an "ideal" passenger? Some of those occasional users may become regular riders if they find the system to be accommodating rather than annoying. As for visitors and the like, I've already spoken with a number of people who resented the fact that SEPTA's fare policies made them feel like sources of found-revenue rather than guests. Why make that any worse by taking away even more flexibility?

I spent about three decades in IT as a developer and designer. One of the core principles for any upgrade or new product was that it shouldn't be more restrictive than its predecessor. SEPTA's ignoring that idea big time.

JeffK wrote:

andrewjw wrote:The only people impacted here are those who refuse to get the Key, such as yourself.

That's not the case for everyone. Of course regular riders should be using the Key for all the reasons you cite. I wasn't a true "early adopter" but was in the second wave because it's far easier and faster than having to carry tokens and dollar bills/coins for transfers.

HOWEVER ... the Key is a major step backwards for infrequent riders and for people who don't live near a sales location. Aside from its lack of availability forcing riders outside of core areas to pay the cash fare or its equivalent, the $10 minimums that SEPTA has set for purchase and reload are a major impediment. Tokens were small-d democratic in that anyone - resident, commuter, visitor, whatever - could buy two of them for a single round trip and pay for transfers separately if needed. But the Key's 10-buck price points equate to oddball numbers of round trips: 2.5 without transferring or an even stranger 1.67 trips if they include a transfer. Anyone who's only using SEPTA a small number of times is potentially forced to either pay the higher cash fare or leave unused money on their card. OK, it's not much each time but like the odious on-board RRD surcharge those dollars add up to a huge chunk of "float" for SEPTA as well as leaving a bad taste. SEPTA could *easily* fix this by changing the Key's initial price to be equivalent to a single round trip, exactly as it was with a token two-pack, and by lowering the minimum reload amount to something like $2. There's no rationale at all for a $10 minimum - after all, other systems like DC Metro allow reloading in fractional amounts, let alone whole dollars.

The Key is also less flexible than tokens because it can't be shared. A group riding together, like a family or students, could simply buy tokens in bulk and share them as needed. Now, every person will have to buy their own Key card with all of the disadvantages imposed by the $10 limits. If one person exhausts the balance on their card they can't simply "borrow" from another; they have to buy another ten bucks' worth whether they need it or not.

OK, none of these problems will affect regular riders. But why should SEPTA discourage people who fall outside their definition of an "ideal" passenger? Some of those occasional users may become regular riders if they find the system to be accommodating rather than annoying. As for visitors and the like, I've already spoken with a number of people who resented the fact that SEPTA's fare policies made them feel like sources of found-revenue rather than guests. Why make that any worse by taking away even more flexibility?

I spent about three decades in IT as a developer and designer. One of the core principles for any upgrade or new product was that it shouldn't be more restrictive than its predecessor. SEPTA's ignoring that idea big time.

Points well made. I retract my previous claim.

Evidently I'm not the only person who has fussed about the $10 minimum. From today's Delco Daily Times:

In response to customer feedback, the minimum amount to load funds onto the SEPTA Key Card Travel Wallet will be lowered from $10 to $5. The maximum per transaction will remain $250.

$5 still doesn't correspond to a whole number of round trips but it's better than before. What sense did 2.5 - or worse, 1.67 - trips make? Those numbers just showed the extent to which the gang at 1234 didn't bother to think things through.

However (there's ALWAYS a "however" when it comes to SEPTA's fares) there's now a $4.95 fee to purchase the card, but it will be applied to your Travel Wallet balance. Yeah, it should be a lot less contorted but at least you're not out 5 bucks for every card.

JeffK wrote: However (there's ALWAYS a "however" when it comes to SEPTA's fares) there's now a $4.95 fee to purchase the card, but it will be applied to your Travel Wallet balance. Yeah, it should be a lot less contorted but at least you're not out 5 bucks for every card.

Good to see them bringing this in line with most other cities - fee to purchase credited to your initial balance when you register online is a pretty standard operation too, actually.

andrewjw wrote:Good to see them bringing this in line with most other cities - fee to purchase credited to your initial balance when you register online is a pretty standard operation too, actually.

Very true. Reportedly they didn't want to impose an up-front fee during the initial rollout because even if it's credited, the charge might have discouraged early adopters. Now that the Key's mostly in place on the transit division, it seems reasonable to go with industry-standard practices.

The reduction to five bucks is also a big improvement. At least it will make the card's cost less of an impediment to low-income users as well as being more attractive to "non-ideal" passengers who aren't going to be riding every day. However* it still doesn't match the price of tokens or transfers - SEPTA will continue to get a lot of float from unused funds. I'm not sure how much it costs to handle each transaction but certainly if other cities can regularly process micro-purchases, a $2 add-on (= 2 transfers corresponding to one round trip) wouldn't seem out of line.

* The SEPTA "however", again ...

andrewjw wrote: Good to see them bringing this in line with most other cities - fee to purchase credited to your initial balance when you register online is a pretty standard operation too, actually.

As opposed to PATCO's $5 not credited charge for their card. And PATCO's single ride tickets expire after 3 days. What's up with that? I can't imagine any sensible reason, other than to force people to drive, or as a source of what you guys have called 'float' that the single ride tickets ever need to expire.

Patrick Boylan wrote:As opposed to PATCO's $5 not credited charge for their card. And PATCO's single ride tickets expire after 3 days. What's up with that? I can't imagine any sensible reason, other than to force people to drive, or as a source of what you guys have called 'float' that the single ride tickets ever need to expire.

I'm actually surprised (but still pleased) that SEPTA's crediting the purchase price. Float*, surcharges, and various other "gotcha" fare policies have always been a big deal for SEPTA. A number of years ago I found some UMTA documentation showing SEPTA actually had a line item in its budget for income from surcharges. Based on some (very unscientific) observations of the number of riders paying cash on a few RRD routes, the despicable on-board surcharge currently brings in as much as $2 million a year in "found money".

* A fairly common financial term, but not that often used in other settings.

JeffK wrote: I'm actually surprised (but still pleased) that SEPTA's crediting the purchase price. Float*, surcharges, and various other "gotcha" fare policies have always been a big deal for SEPTA. A number of years ago I found some UMTA documentation showing SEPTA actually had a line item in its budget for income from surcharges. Based on some (very unscientific) observations of the number of riders paying cash on a few RRD routes, the despicable on-board surcharge currently brings in as much as $2 million a year in "found money".

* A fairly common financial term, but not that often used in other settings.

Personally I've had to ride the rails at odd hours, and I have noticed that with the on board charges comes off as a "poor tax" so to speak. I distinctly remember a conversation about how the people behind me could not afford the 10 trip ticket strip out to zone 3, but they could only afford one ticket. With the SEPTA stations having odd hours, that means poor people cannot get the cheaper tickets and are forced to get an onboard surcharge. A three dollar surcharge is a lot for the poor who rely on SEPTA to get to work. This was on the Paoli line headed into and out of center city after 7 PM because the 106 bus stops running at that time.

ChesterValley wrote: Personally I've had to ride the rails at odd hours, and I have noticed that with the on board charges comes off as a "poor tax" so to speak. I distinctly remember a conversation about how the people behind me could not afford the 10 trip ticket strip out to zone 3, but they could only afford one ticket. With the SEPTA stations having odd hours, that means poor people cannot get the cheaper tickets and are forced to get an onboard surcharge. A three dollar surcharge is a lot for the poor who rely on SEPTA to get to work. This was on the Paoli line headed into and out of center city after 7 PM because the 106 bus stops running at that time.

Ideally, they'd purchase tickets in Center City before boarding to avoid this. But your point is well made.