SEPTA getting 50 Arrow III cars from NJT?

Report from the latest Bulletin of the New York Division of Electric Railway Assocation is that SEPTA may get 50 of NJT Arrow III cars in exchange for SEPTA's 45 Bombardier cars. THis is a rumor.

If anyone has heard of this, please post.

My guess is that it's nothing more than a rumor. The idea's come up a few times (in both this forum and the NJT one), and the consensus seems to be that NJT needs the Arrows more then new p/p cars, especially with the new bi-levels coming soon. NJT doesn't have enough electric locomotives to cover the loss of that many Arrows, so the deal would probably have to include the AEM-7s and the ALP-44, and I'm not sure that NJT would want to have another type of engine to have to maintain (especially for just seven of them).

Guys: In the NJT Rails section I posted a group about the NJT Arrow 2 cars. SEPTA in my opinion blew a golden opportunity to pick up the group of I believe 76 cars when NJT retired them. I have heard of the trade rumor myself. MACTRAXX

This seems to make a bit of sense. NJT hates their EMUs, SEPTA doesn't seem to be too fond of the AEM7/push pulls, so why not trade a few? The Comet 6 isn't all that great an increase in capacity over the previous single level Comets, its main advantage is that it has all 2+2 seating and more standee space. I would say that SEPTA should give the 6 AEM7s to Amtrak for Keystone service, with the sole ALP44 going to NJT, but then NJT potentially would be stuck with cars they cannot haul, and Amtrak potentially would have locomotives with no cars to haul. However, can the Arrow IIIs be MUed with the Silverliner IVs? I know the ABB rebuild did retain the ability to MU with the Arrow IIs, but I don't know if the SEPTA and NJT EMUs were ever compatible.

However, why would SEPTA want the Arrow IIs? Didn't they have PCB using transformers? AFAIK when NJT retired the Arrow IIs SEPTA had just finished Frazier yard, completed abandoning Paoli, and was retrofitting the Silverliner IVs with PCB-free transformers. I know the Arrow IIs lacked dynamic brakes, so either SEPTA would have to follow NJT's lead in retrofitting them, or would be forced to have a bunch of what would basically be younger Silverliner IIs and IIIs running around, complete with the flukey handling in mixed sets and the high wheel wear.

SEPTA should have held on to the blueliners, installed the damn cab signals and ditch lights, and kept them in mothball status for situations like this. They could have used them in Charter service for all the foamer groupies who would have loved to ride them. Now whenever something comes up (Live 8, strike, natural/manmade catastrophe) we are stuck with serious service shortfalls. Whats more insulting is listening to the city telling us to use regional rail when its bursting at the seams, and 80% of the city stations are abandonded.

braves wrote:Report from the latest Bulletin of the New York Division of Electric Railway Assocation is that SEPTA may get 50 of NJT Arrow III cars in exchange for SEPTA's 45 Bombardier cars. THis is a rumor.

My source within SEPTA says this rumor not true.

I'll poke my NJT sources but I suspect they'll giggle when I tell them this one (again, didn't this pop up a year or two ago?).

As for the Blueliners, I've read the CC tunnel was their downfall - they could negotiate it but it was hard on the motors. I wonder what the steepest grades they had to handle prior were, though. I suspect it was more like the CC tunnel gave Septa a cheap excuse to dump a fleet that was getting old and likely hard to get parts for...

As for the Blueliners, I've read the CC tunnel was their downfall - they could negotiate it but it was hard on the motors. I wonder what the steepest grades they had to handle prior were, though. I suspect it was more like the CC tunnel gave Septa a cheap excuse to dump a fleet that was getting old and likely hard to get parts for...

Exactly. I am a young fart and while I may someone wish for the olden days of train travel as shown in all those black and white images where trains ran everywhere, I tend to forget that those old straight AC MU's were slow as hell. They had a top speed of 50 and very poor acceleration. Add in the fact that those cars would be pushing 80 years old and they probably wouldn't be much use.

Anyway, SEPTA should have bought the 25 Arrow II cars, but they are inept so go figure. Keeping the Pioneer III units would have been nice as well.

Jersey_Mike wrote: They had a top speed of 50 and very poor acceleration.

While the Blueliners certainly didn't have the "giddyup" of the Silverliners, they were capable of much more than 50 MPH, and were quite a thrill to ride at higher speeds, especially with the windows open. On one of the railfan trips, they reportedly hit track speed on the PRR Main Line around Parkesburg. Remember that some of the cars were also trailers which reduced the acceleration of the train whereas all of the Silverliners are powered.

Trouble with the PIII cars was that by the time thery were retired, parts must have been interesting to find.

They also weren't perfect when new - their transformers were always marginal, and the right angle drive geartrain on the trucks was touchy. They also used a totally different propulsion system from the later stuff - I don't think they could MU.

They were great cars when new but they were <b>experimental</b> cars and intended to be so by Budd.

FWIW, they were also the lightest mainline EMUs ever run in the US - 89,000lbs per car. That's why they blew the doors off the MP-54s even though they had no more HP and were longer and held more people...

also rember Njt is now receiving new Pl42 locomotives and Njt has got back there 5 alp46's that amtrak was using for clocker service. so thats 6 new locos for Njt to use without the pl42s

Well, I'll believe it when I see it.

NJT could use those push pull coaches with their existing Comet I fleet as they are compatible, but NJT also needs its MUs.

It be cool to have Comet II like coaches in an unrebuilt form back on NJT though.

Aren't Some of the Septa cars Comet III's? and the ones without the door in the middle CII's?

Njt4300 wrote:Aren't Some of the Septa cars Comet III's? and the ones without the door in the middle CII's?

The second batch of Septa push/pull cars (2550 series) are actually closer to MetroNorth coaches than the Comets. This is due to the fact that they were actually tacked onto the end of a MN Bomber order and came from the same production run.

Exactly how many PP cars does Septa have?