Run the RRD 24/7?

Here's something that should be done to help boost ridership:

All SEPTA rail serivces should run 24/7. Not only that, but the Rail system should be the main focus of the system's efforts. Connecting SEPTA buses and main routes should be the next focus. Here's what should be operating overnight full force:

Regional rail at hourly headways late nights (half-hourly during weekends/evenings. 15 minutes rush hours).

MFL/BSS at 30 minute headways (with really, really beefy police presence).

Trunk line buses (14,20,58,23,Victory Divison,etc) should run at 30 minute headways late nights.


That would really help Philly tourism and economy as it ecourages more late night tourism and working. What do ya think?

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:Here's something that should be done to help boost ridership:

All SEPTA rail serivces should run 24/7.[snip]

That would really help Philly tourism and economy as it ecourages more late night tourism and working. What do ya think?

Tourists are a drop in the bucket with respect to revenue. It will cost much more to run that additional service than they will get in new revenue.

At the very least run the R7 from Trenton to give a connection to NYC. That would help commuters and provide more tourist dollars.

And the tourist I'm talking about are people in Newtown and Ardmore. I'm talking about making Philly a regional entertainment and commerce center.

First you need to be clear on your goal.

Suppose it is to increase tourism. Even with tourists paying on a per-ride basis, the added service would still (probably) be a losing proposition as far as increasing revenue for SEPTA. Not that there's anything wrong with that. The city and state governments might decide that they are willing to pony up extra money to run this tourist oriented service, hoping to make up that money(and then some) in increased tax revenue from the tourists riding SEPTA. PROBLEM: This will never happen.

As far as increasing late night service to get people to/from work? Seems like a losing proposition. Most of these riders already have passes, so their is no increased revenue from their increased ridership. I doubt many people would say "Oh look, SEPTA has better night owl service now, so now I can do nightwork and start riding SEPTA."

I think we should just considder ourselves lucky to have the mid day service we have to the extend that we do.

I'll bet my paycheck that come the next round of the battle for the buck, the thretten to run the regional rail during peak periods only with very limited off peak service.

In all honesty, I don't think Philadelphia is as big of an all night city as other city's are. I have driven through center city at times, even before midnight, and the roads are pretty vacent.

On the other hand, I do suport a few trains later than the current last departure, particulary on the Lansdale/Doylestown, Trenton, and Elwyn lines. I love how the last departure to Doylestown on a Friday night is at 9:50pm, but on a Sinday night, it is 11:20pm.

Even big all-night cities such as London and Tokyo don't run their heavy rail systems 24/7. NYC is the only city I know of that runs subways 24 hours a day.

I think having midday railroad services on a half-hour headway on all lines might be a good idea. Currently the R1 and R5 have half-hourly headways. Since the conductors and engineers are already working the morning and evening rush hours, SEPTA would not have to hire any additional people, and the incremental costs would be low. The question would have to be whether it would attract enough additional riders to offset the cost.

SEPTA's core market is commuters going to work or school. There are people who work shifts other than 9-5, and the expressways can be pretty slow middays sometimes.

Adding late night and weekend services is expensive because you have to hire more conductors and engineers, with full benefits, plus administrative and management costs, without seeing much ridership. I've been on late evening and night buses and the fares from the number of riders doesn't even cover the cost of the diesel burned.

Lucius Kwok wrote:Since the conductors and engineers are already working the morning and evening rush hours, SEPTA would not have to hire any additional people, and the incremental costs would be low.

I was under the impression that many employees work a form of split shift schedule, so covering midday trips would involve either additional personnel or extra overtime. Can anyone confirm?

Even big all-night cities such as London and Tokyo don't run their heavy rail systems 24/7. NYC is the only city I know of that runs subways 24 hours a day.

Just for clarification, Chicago's CTA has 2 of 9 el lines/branches running 24/7 with several others running 20-21 hr/day M-F. Weekend schedules are somewhat reduced on these other lines/branches.

Also Metra, the commuter equivalent of SEPTA, runs trains on some lines approximately 19-20 hr/day M-F, so people are able to get around except for the the very middle of the night.

In the era of private ownership ( ie PTC) the transit side of the rail system ( the BSS, MFSE, & Subway Surface Cars) DID run all night. ( I remember that the "one block" Route 11 run was the "owl" car, and for many years was operated by one of the female streetcar operators that had been hired during WW II, and had continued to operate streetcars until the late 1960's.) What is now the RRD, as operated by the PRR and Reading Company, did not run beyond midnight, generally, and the Red Arrow Lines shut down at midnight or 1:00am. But there WAS "owl" rail service in Philly in those days.

walt wrote:But there WAS "owl" rail service in Philly in those days.

Yes, it continued well into the SEPTA era, until 1990-91.

path18951 wrote: On the other hand, I do suport a few trains later than the current last departure, particulary on the Lansdale/Doylestown, Trenton, and Elwyn lines. I love how the last departure to Doylestown on a Friday night is at 9:50pm, but on a Sinday night, it is 11:20pm.

I often wonder where stuff like that comes from. Same deal with the DeCamp bus to Newark. 11:30 everyday is the last bus, 'cept Sunday when it's 12.

ryanov wrote:

path18951 wrote: On the other hand, I do suport a few trains later than the current last departure, particulary on the Lansdale/Doylestown, Trenton, and Elwyn lines. I love how the last departure to Doylestown on a Friday night is at 9:50pm, but on a Sunday night, it is 11:20pm.

I often wonder where stuff like that comes from.

Crew work shifts--the difference between having a crew on hand who's already paid for and paying overtime to a crew.

Same deal with the DeCamp bus to Newark. 11:30 everyday is the last bus, 'cept Sunday when it's 12.

That's easy--it's a college town, and there's a lot of kids coming back Sunday night. There might also be some college business out to Del Val on the R5 Doylestown too.

SEPTA could do much better. Now that they're in the habit of not storing equipment at the end of the line, with a few exceptions, they could at least take passengers on their last run in to Roberts instead of running dead the whole way (like the R8 CHW).

while it is tru that most cities around the world shut down their subways and/or trams and buses at night (i.e. 1:30-4:30am, give or take 30 or 60 minutes), some cities do run public transportation 24/7 or almost to that level.

in toronto, the subway stops running between 1:30 and 6:00 am, but the streetcars and some buses run during the night. i believe that the situation is similar in vancouver and montréal. also, you can grab a long distance train in nighttime in most european stations. i have been in termini(rome) after midnight; while most of the station is closed, you can still grab trains to other european cities.

however, i do agree that septa does need to run regional rail service more often and later.

rail__debris wrote:in toronto, the subway stops running between 1:30 and 6:00 am, but the streetcars and some buses run during the night.

I was just up in Toronto back in March. The subways run roughly 5:30am to 1am on weekdays, with a 6:30am start Saturday, and a 9:00am start on Sundays.

As for the trolleys, they don't run all night either. The TTC operates their 300-series owl bus routes on a system that incorporates various daytime bus and trolley routes.