Return of Route 15 light rail line.

When Route 15 returns to light rao; operations this September(we hope), will some Kawaski cars run on Route 15 or will the line just run PCC cars only.

PCC only, until they fall apart and SEPTA sells them like the un-rebuilt PCC's.

I have a real concern now with the wheelchair lifts. From what I've heard, its a very involved process which consumes at least 5 minutes in loading a single chair. The operator has to exit the vehicle to operate the lift, and keep in mind chairs may need to be loaded at places which don't have an island which requires additional hardware to accomodate the chair. 5 minutes can really ruin someone's day if you have a connection downtown, and will wreck havoc with traffic as in most places the trolley will be right in the middle of the street. I hope people don't try to pass it on the right. Its sounds like a mess with both frustrated passengers and car drivers.

Why did they force lifts on the PCC's anyway while the Kawasaki's are not ADA compliant?

Considering that Kawasaki's are not ADA, I would think it there is a PCC shortage, the PCC will be substituted with a bus and not a Kawasaki for that reason alone, hastening the death of trolleys on the 15 should that ever occur.

I know this can sound very callous and harsh, but in actuality this is something that most people mull over...

First off, ADA compliancy is great for the people who need it.

But really, it adds thousands if not millions of dollars to EVERYTHING and is oftentimes a burden on the people who don't need it. I hate it. In my opinion, it ruins everything it touches. From building architecture, to transit, to streetscapes.

That said, i think that the PCC II might get a quick death with the whole ADA thing.

The K-cars are based at Elmwood, while the PCCs are at Callowill, I believe. The two depots are far apart and I don't think SEPTA will be sending K-cars up to Girard except in an emergency. Of course the whole depot issue was the reason for the latest year-long delay.

queenlnr8 wrote:I know this can sound very callous and harsh, but in actuality this is something that most people mull over...

First off, ADA compliancy is great for the people who need it.

But really, it adds thousands if not millions of dollars to EVERYTHING and is oftentimes a burden on the people who don't need it. I hate it. In my opinion, it ruins everything it touches. From building architecture, to transit, to streetscapes.

That said, i think that the PCC II might get a quick death with the whole ADA thing.

And I thought I was the only one.

The ADA certainly seems like a case of "the greatest benefit for the few at the greatest inconvenience to the many" and an example of what political nagging can do. I say this as a person with a disability myself, resulting from a birth injury (in my day it was called "crippled" and frankly that seems more honest).

But I look at the bright side. I don't call them "wheelchair ramps" or "wheelchair lifts" ... I call them "shopping cart ramps" and "baby carriage lifts," because frankly there are alot more people out there with prams and shopping carts than with wheelchairs. So the law unintentionally helps more folks than it planned.

With that said, I think the reason that the Kawasakis escaped compliance is that they snuck in before the law and cannot reasonably be adapted.
-Urban

The K Cars are going to Callowhill in February. The reason why the PCCs were forced to be ADA compliant, is because under the law they were considered "new vehicles" and by law all new vehicles have to be compliant. The K Cars were built before the transit section of the ADA was enacted in the late '80s and they are under a waiver until 2010. That is why SEPTA has in their budget replacement LRVs for both the Subway Surface and Media/Sharon Hill Lines.

ADA certainly seems like a case of "the greatest benefit for the few at the greatest inconvenience to the many"

Thanks to George the 1st who signed it into law....also kind of goes against how mass transit was designed to work.

That being said, why do we still fund para-transit??

Because people have disabilities, and people grow old.

greg19051 wrote:Because people have disabilities, and people grow old.

Is paratransit necessary, though, if all the normal routes are equipped to accomodate them?

Paratransit provides door to door service. the elderly or disabled are not always able to walk the 3 blocks to the bus stop. Paratransit provides them the abilty for them to live their lives somewhat normaly. Paratransit also provides the transit company with more federal money.

If you're in a chair use Paratransit, period. Why do I and 30 other people have to be late for work because a wheelchair bound person insists on riding a bus/trolley/train? They add 5 minutes to regional rail trips too where high level platforms do not exist.

SEPTALRV9072 wrote:The K Cars are going to Callowhill in February. The reason why the PCCs were forced to be ADA compliant, is because under the law they were considered "new vehicles" and by law all new vehicles have to be compliant. The K Cars were built before the transit section of the ADA was enacted in the late '80s and they are under a waiver until 2010. That is why SEPTA has in their budget replacement LRVs for both the Subway Surface and Media/Sharon Hill Lines.

That being said, even after 2010, the K-cars would not need to be modified for ADA compliance unless they received a heavy rebuild involving structural modification. Easy enough to do with the city cars, just remove the center post at the center doors, and put the lift there.

The suburban K-cars, however....no way they can do an easy modification on them....

And yep, K-cars are heading to Callowhill, to operate on Route 10.

ROUTE 15 - RETURN OF TROLLEYS TO GIRARD AVENUE

Effective Date: Sunday, September 4, 2005

Description: 18 fully restored, ADA accessible PCC cars will be placed into service along the length of the line from Richmond & Westmoreland to 63rd and Girard.

All carstops will be identified with curbside signs. At stops with center boarding islands, customers will board and exit trolleys from those locations. Signs will be posted at all City owned bus shelters along the route advising riders to cross to the center platforms for Route 15 service.

Notices: Leaflets and brochures have been printed offering customers and community residents important safety tips within the Route service area. Leaflets have also been printed for area businesses stressing the importance of keeping the active track area clear of non-authorized SEPTA vehicles.

Beginning Monday, August 22, 2005, SEPTA will initiate an information outreach campaign for motorists along Girard Avenue advising that it is illegal to park in designated transit zones.

Some Route 15 bus stops will be discontinued with the return of trolley service primarily to ensure safe boarding and exiting of the cars. Signs will be posted at these stops informing customers of this change, effective September 4, 2005. The ‘Stop Discontinued’ list is attached for your reference.

Route 15 Discontinued Stop List


 Girard at 62nd Street - (eastbound)
 Girard at 58th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 55th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 53rd Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 50th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at Merion - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at E. Lancaster - (westbound)
 Girard at 46th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 38th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 30th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard & 22nd/Wall - (eastbound & westbound)
 West College & Girard - (westbound)
 Girard at Hospital - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 15th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 13th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 10th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at 6th Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at W. 4th Street - (eastbound)
 Girard at Marlborough Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at Montgomery Street - (eastbound & westbound)
 Girard at Susquehanna Avenue - (eastbound & westbound)

I noticed today that there's a small banner on a light post north of the 33rd and Girard westbound island stop (right in front of the PWD East Park pump house, the small building with a tiled roof). The banner features a picture of the interior of a PCC II all lit up on it's east-facing side and has a shot of the 'musuem' PCC's (2733) front end, mostly showing the number board and headlight on the reverse. I haven't seen any other banners on Girard like this, and didn't happen to have my camera with me so I can't provide photographic proof of it, but it seems SOMEBODY out there in a small position of power was looking out for the 15.

If it wasn't for the Girard ave business coalition, the Northern Liberties/Fishtown renewal I don't think any of this would have happened.