• Random Thoughts Thread(HO Scale Only) 3/18/05

  • Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.
Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.

Moderators: 3rdrail, stilson4283, Otto Vondrak

  by Myke Romeo Angel
 
How come you always see LIRR disels, yet you hardly see anyone do passenger coaches for them on model train websites.

Will they ever make high level passenger platforms in HO scale for the northeast corridor.

Also will they ever design high level platforms in HO Scale that have elevators & escelators as well.

I am light years away from a house & my apartment is waaaaaaaaay to small to run my trains, yet i won't stop buying them. :(

I just don't have the skills or craftmanship for model trains, however they still won't stop me from collecting them. :-D

I like the fact that the Septa transit musuem store has Silverliners, however they did a crappy job & are charging way to much, however i give them a B for effort for @ least trying to give us Silverliner freaks something to work with.

Also how come the people that work there hardly know anything about trains. :(

I have yet to find any model railroad sites that speaclize in commuter railroads only. As many people as i see in hobby shops buying trains I'm still waiting to see how their layouts look.

I wonder if anyone is doing Boston's South Station or Washington's Union Station.


Feel free to add your random thoughts.... :-D
  by astrosa
 
My thoughts are not random but are in fact direct responses to your random thoughts. Read on:

1. What LIRR diesels are you referring to? If you mean their freight-type locomotives, it's because those were common engines that already exist in model form or are easy to kitbash. And I think it's already been established that commuter models are a limited market, so that should pretty much answer your question right there. Incidentally, though, Funaro & Camerlengo does offer some resin kits for older LIRR coaches.

2. I don't foresee an injection-molded kit for NEC high-level platforms like Walthers did with their Union Station platforms. Why? It's a limited-interest area (how many people have actual contemporary NEC layouts?), and high-level platforms are tricker to install on a layout because we rarely have long enough sections of perfectly straight track. It would be better to build your own platforms from styrene or wood so that you could custom-fit them to the curves of your trackwork. And would it be so hard to scratchbuild something that's basically a large concrete block?

Another thing to remember is that not every station's platforms look the same. I can't really picture a generic "NEC-style high-level platform" because there are so many variations. What you could see is a kit with some platform details, like trash cans and ticket machines, that you would add to the platform you built. But trying to consolidate everything into a mass-produced kit? Not so likely.

3. See above...I could possibly see an add-on kit containing elevators and escalators, but again there's the problem of different styles. A better idea is figuring out exactly what your elevators/escalators need to look like, then building a master and casting your own. For scenic details, it's perfectly okay if you're not turning out pro-quality castings. But hey, you don't have a layout to install platforms on, so why worry so much in the first place?

4. Yeah, that's nothing new to model railroaders everywhere. But a decade from now you'll be glad you bought certain trains when you did, because they won't be available anymore. Or maybe you'll make huge profits selling them on the eBay of the future because they're completely mint in their original boxes, never having been run on a layout.

5. This is something I've seen a lot of people saying lately, and frankly it annoys me that people dismiss themselves so readily. Do you think the rest of us were just born with the natural ability to kitbash, scratchbuild, and airbrush? It takes a lot of TIME and PRACTICE, not to mention money, to develop the skill and craftsmanship needed to turn out high-quality models on your own. I got started in the hobby around age 6, and it wasn't until age 16 that I finally finished my first "good" model. Ten years is a long time, especially for a young person, and it includes a lot of crappy-looking models! In the three years since my breakthrough, I've gained more experience and am just now working successfully on projects that I've been dreaming about for many years. And believe me, I still have much more to learn! Granted, it's different if you start the hobby at a later age than I did, but the point I'm trying to make is that NOBODY will be a John Allen right from the start (and if you don't know who he is, you got some reading to do). You're almost insulting the rest of us, who also didn't know an X-acto knife from a razor saw at one point long ago. But we didn't give up and resign ourselves to only collecting trains. Think of it as a form of education that you go through...and even once you graduate from the high school of model railroading, there's still college and grad school coming up around the corner.

My advice? Assume that it will take you a few years to learn the basic skills you want, and buy some cheap Athearn models to experiment on. Try kitbashing them together, try painting them yourself, try anything you want to. That way you won't be ruining any expensive models when you make mistakes, and eventually when you become comfortable with modeling, you can start to work on some "real" projects. But it's not going to happen overnight, and I honestly believe that ANYONE can become an experienced model builder with patience and practice. But don't use the excuse that you don't have the skills...if there's anything you lack, it's the determination to stick with it and learn the skills on your own.

(By the way, the NMRA and possibly other organizations often hold clinics for people wanting to learn the basics of the hobby. You see these often at train shows - lots of them deal with scenery, but I've read about clinics that describe the basics of detailing a locomotive. Help is out there if you're willing to take the time to find it.)

6. The Silverliners sold at the SEPTA museum store are basically toys. I would consider them souvenirs for kids who ride the real thing and want a model they can put together themselves. I really don't think they were intended to be scale models by any stretch; after all, it was SEPTA who commissioned OK Engines to produce the models (from my understanding). It's not like Walthers suddenly decided it would be a profitable venture to produce Silverliner models. And hey, SEPTA can charge whatever they want, because obviously some people are willing to buy them.

7. Because for them it's just a job. Of course there are some railroad employees who are also railfans/modelers, but not as many as there used to be. Try to think about it in other ways - this would be like having flight attendants who were fanatical about the airplanes themselves, or garbage collectors who went around taking pictures of garbage trucks in their spare time (no offense if any of them do). We might love trains, but for most other people, trains are just a thing that gets them from point A to point B.

8. Maybe you should start the first one, then. Also, your definition is somewhat broad. What kind of model railroad sites that specialize in commuter railroads would you want to see? Manufacturers, models, layouts, ideas? Remember again that commuter models are not as popular as other types. I'm sure some of the people you see buying the models aren't actually commuter fans, they just need a train for through service on their freight-themed layout. Or maybe they're like you...buying the trains because they love them, even though they have no layout to run them on. (Not that there's anything wrong with that - for all intents and purposes, I don't have a layout either.)

I do know that there are others out there who focus on commuter or other passenger equipment, and I wish more people would either start their own websites or share photos by means of existing sites. But you're not helping the cause by wondering why anyone else isn't doing it - the best way to accomplish something is to take action yourself. It takes a lot of time and effort to run a successful website, so if you want one, there's your plan of action. Start a website that you intend to be the #1 commuter modeling site on the net, and encourage people to submit content in addition to what you post on the site. How else are you going to get what you want, when you want it?

9. I've not heard of anyone working on either of those stations in their modern form, since the nightmare of trackwork in addition to scratchbuilding the platforms and terminals would drive most people nuts. I believe there's one fellow working on a Chicago-area Amtrak/commuter layout, but I've never seen photos. Also, the famed John Pryke models the New Haven in the 1950s, and I'm pretty sure he included South Station (or at least the area around it) on his layout. Photos of it show up from time to time in Model Railroader - there was one a few months ago that I believe showed the throat tracks of the station - and the layout was featured in a Great Model Railroads publication at some point. Search the magazine index at http://www.trains.com for clues.



Myke, you clearly have a lot on your mind, which is good, but I think you'd be more satisfied if you did more acting on behalf of your thoughts. I believe I've provided you with some ideas to build on, so I suggest you go forth and do some further investigation of your various questions and desires. One of my favorite parts of the hobby is researching, because it's just such a great feeling knowing that I found the information without anyone telling me where to look. And don't forget, the Internet doesn't have every bit of information that's available. Even as recently as a few years ago it was still more helpful to go to a library and read through back issues of MR, RMC, MRG, MM, and any other magazines to learn about the hobby. Just because it doesn't show up within the first page of Google results doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere.

  by Camelback
 
People who wish to model commuter have a few options plus some neccesities.

1: Join or start a club specializing in this type of modeling. This is probably the best option because 1) you will have more available space, 2) you can recruit members who are good scratch builders and 3) you can pool financial resources.

2: Earn or save enough money to buy brass or other more expensive, limited run equipment from specialty companies.

3) Talk the wife into letting you use the two car garage.

4) Consider N scale for a home layout.

5) Model only a small portion of a commuter rail line.

  by hoharold
 
MRA,
"...my apartment is waaaaaaaaay to small to run my trains..."

Before I bought my present house I lived in an attic apartment of a small house. I built, detailed and weathered rolling stock of all kinds for three years. I found that if you have the desire to run trains and room for a sofa running trains is no problem. I measured the area behind the sofa which would hide, when standing on edge, a small switching layout. When ever I had time and TLW was not at home or had gone to bed I set up the RR over two chairs and "operated" to my heart's content. At the time I wasn't aware of it but there is a layout called the "Timesaver" which is very interesting to run. If you look it up you can modify it to suit your needs and run 'em most any time you want to.

You will be able to see how your building skills are progressing, learn train handling, tracklaying, wiring, locomotive "tuning" and have many a nice evening "switchin' the night away". When you are done, disconnect the power supply and stash the RR behind the couch... Or standing up in a closet. Hey, if you really WANT to run you'll figure some way to "git 'er done"!
  by Komachi
 
Myke,

As a Midwesterner who models the Midwest, I can't comment on your specific questions about the NEC and Eastern prototypes, but I can address your broader questions...


"How come you always see LIRR disels, yet you hardly see anyone do passenger coaches for them on model train websites."

Have you tried looking at Imperial Hobbies?

http://ihphobby.tripod.com/

They do resin kits for various commuter equipment, but based on your fifth comment, that may be a bit beyond your current level of craftsmanship. Still, the items you seek are out there, you just have to look for them, although, it will probably be a long while (if ever) before anyone attempts to do anything in plastic (but then again, Kato is making double-decked commuter cars, so there's always hope).


"Will they ever make high level passenger platforms in HO scale for the northeast corridor. Also will they ever design high level platforms in HO Scale that have elevators & escelators as well."

OK, you're outside my realm of knowledge here, do any other commuter agencies use the same type of high-level platforms? Metra? Metrolink? If so, you stand a better chance of seeing them made, as broader market appeal sells. Although, as astrosa said, you'd be better off building your own out of styrene (or balsa wood, or if you're really feeling daring... build some forms and cast them out of plaster), and it would be easier to conform to your trackwork rather than modify your track plan to accomodate the platforms.


"I am light years away from a house & my apartment is waaaaaaaaay to small to run my trains, yet i won't stop buying them."

I don't have my own place yet. Like many college graduates, I moved back in with my parents. While I have a large basement at my disposal, I only have a 2.5 x 12 foot space for my layout and recently, with remodeling underway and a pending job overseas (not to mention I'm the only railbuff in my family), I've had to abandon my current layout. But I'm still going to accumulate my collection as needed.

Hoharold had a good idea for a switching layout (that's what mine was going to be), but I would also suggest getting a hollow core door from a home improvement store and using that as a platform to build on. They come in various sizes, so you can build a switching layout, or if you get a 3'6" door (which I believe is the widest they make) you can squeeze an 18" radius curve on it for continuous operation (although, your passenger cars will look WAY off on something that sharp). An added benefit of the hollow core door is that they don't warp too bad and you can get a damaged one fairly cheaply (or so I've heard... I built my own modules out of plywood, just like Dave Barrow). Just a suggestion.


"I just don't have the skills or craftmanship for model trains, however they still won't stop me from collecting them."

OK, again, astrosa and I are in the same camp here, you may have poor modeling skills now, but just build. Buy cheap kits and build. Yes, you'll mess up, but we've all done that. If I showed you some of the things I attempted when I was younger, you wouldn't feel so bad. But that's how it works, experimentation and practice. I'm 28 (as of the posting of this message) and I'm still learning how to use a Dremel and I haven't soldered since I was in 9th grade shop class, but I have some scrap rail lying around that I'm going to take my new (actually my first) soldering iron and re-teach myself how to solder. Think my rails are going look like Tony Koester soldered them the first time I put lead to the rails? Nope, they're going to be all globby and funky looking, requiring lots of filing. But that's how I'm going to learn, trial and error. Did you parallel park perfectly the first time you drove? Probably not. It probably took you a few times to figure out how to get it right. Just keep at it and you'll eventually get good at it. As the Japanese say, "Ganbate, ne!" (Loosly translated it means "Do your best!" or "Don't give up!")


"I like the fact that the Septa transit musuem store has Silverliners, however they did a crappy job & are charging way to much, however i give them a B for effort for @ least trying to give us Silverliner freaks something to work with. Also how come the people that work there hardly know anything about trains."

As astrosa pointed out, the employees are probably mostly part-timers who are just there for the paycheck. Also, I'll second the comment on the silverliner kits being nothing more than a souvenier for those who want something to take home. If you want a good silverliner, you're going to have to get a resin kit, buy brass, or scratchbuild your own.


"I have yet to find any model railroad sites that speaclize in commuter railroads only. As many people as i see in hobby shops buying trains I'm still waiting to see how their layouts look."

As the posts above stated, start your own and try to get some interest in it. Also, are the above mentioned people buying commuter trains, or like me and buying freight cars? My layout (even the "empire") will be a sea of grain hoppers with the only passenger cars being private varnish, MOW conversions or Superliners to model the Empire Builder. (Although, as I've stated elsewhere, I would deffinately have a New Haven McGinnis FL-9 and some commuter cars sitting on a shelf in my layout room as a cool conversation piece.) The next time you're in the hobby shop, talk to some of the other patrons and see where their interests lie. Maybe you can start networking with other modelers and you guys could start the greatest commuter SIG (Special Interest Group) ever established. Just a suggestion.


"I wonder if anyone is doing Boston's South Station or Washington's Union Station."

Again, can't help ya there. Midwest... East coast...


Hopefully my ramblings make sense (It's late and I've put in a full day today...) and I wish you luck in your endeavours. Who knows, maybe if you get enough people behind you, you'll be able to convince the big name manufacturers to build more commuter based models in the future. Ya never know.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Myke- Frankly your random thoughts sound pretty much like "whining" where I come from. However, I don't entirely blame you. The model railroad press has inspired and polluted the minds of young people everywhere- you are exposed to highly detailed layouts and models, exposed to relatively inexpensive, well-running and good looking equipment, and somehow are brainwashed that you, as a pre-adult, need all of these things to have fun in this hobby.

Myke, I suggest you read the repsonses to your rant very carefully. Here's a summary.

1) Not everything that you want to model will be available commercially.

2) You don't need to have a model of that exotic electric/commuter equipment that runs past your house to be happy.

3) If you really want these models that badly MAKE THEM YOURSELF.

4) Don't be upset when others don't have the answers you want. FIND THEM YOURSELF.

Look, I wouldn't be too impressed with you if you showed me some expensive brass model of an FL9 in full MN paint that you dumped $700 on. I would be pretty impressed if you showed me your FL9 model that you kitbashed yourself. Even if it wasn't perfect. Or whatever. Don't be deluded into thinking you need to have it all to be happy or successfull or accepted in this hobby. Otherwise, you will never be happy. Not just you, ALL young people...

-otto-
  by mlrr
 
Myke Romeo Angel wrote:
I wonder if anyone is doing Boston's South Station or Washington's Union Station.
I feel your "pain" Myke and so I will attempt to be a little more "sensitive" to your position.

Some good news though! My friend Mike Thomas, is modeling DC's Union Station from the head house, north past K tower and around the curve. I've seen it myself and he has built it based on memory. He has done a great job so far modeling the split level track layout. He has also installed signaling systems (wayside) and operates it with CTI, computer interface. I can link one photo to the page that he posted on my RR forum:

Image

That photo is just north of the platform area. I have to get permission from him to post any more photos. I also need a place to upload them. I will have a section for him to post photos on my website, but he has yet to complete his layout to a point where he is ready to make photos available to the public. I personally think they are ready now but it's his call.

  by ngotwalt
 
Myke,
I understand mos t of your thoughts, and they are most certainly valid. Now the stuff that no one makes, high platforms are not difficult to build at all., that is if you don't want to modify the European ones to make them look American because the European companies make like 10 varieties of high platform. Here is what you do, you buy the walthers paltform kit...933-3175 and you get a piece of balsa wood, it should be about 3/4 of an inch thick. You take that and fit it up on the underside of the platform. If you like you fit molded styrene around its edges, airbrush the whole thing grey and Voila...you have a high platform, don't have an airbrush, don't know how to use one, there are plenty of articles and information sources out there (this forum included) that will help you through the learning process. As for commutter modelers there is a growing market for them as more and more people become interested in commutter trains. Not everything is going to be ready to roll though. Your point about people at a museum not knowing very little is disgraceful. You can't hope to preserve history if you yourself don't know the history. Those are my random thoughs on your random thoughts. Modeling isn't as hard as it looks, think of it like this, you can speak the english language, probably the most complex language in the world...but there was a time when you couldn't, as there was a time when I couldn't. Start small, don't tackle the big projects first...buy a decorated diesel and superdetail it, add correct horn, winshield wipers, etc. Don't expect to build an award winning model of DC Union Station on your first project. Small apartments (I live in one here at school are good for one thing) building models, you can run them, but you can build them, when the time comes that you can build a layout and run them...you will have a lot of very nice models...also modeling will teach you patients if you don't have it, lord knows I didn't, I do now.
Cheers,
Nick

  by FL9
 
You could kitbash anything you want if you have the confidence to do it and show patience and long hours of dedication. Take the resources you have or know and use them to your advantage to make things work.