R4 train

I know this was addressed on the old forum but I can't remember the explanation: why is there no R4 line?

The R4 was supposed to be Bryn Mawr - Fox Chase. The Swampdoodle connection was supposed to be built, linking the ex-PRR Chestnut Hill West line to the ex-RDG Norristown line. The R1 was supposed to be Airport - West Trenton (if you look in Suburban Station, some of the R3 WT displays have a yellow background), the R3 was to be Elwyn to CHW. I'm not sure whether R5 trains were to stop between Bryn Mawr and 30th St. The pairings were made by Prof. Vuchic at UPenn and were based on ridership numbers.

On a side note, would it make more sense these days (based on ridership) to pair CHW and Norristown and Fox Chase and Cynwyd? I have no idea what the numbers work out to, but Cynwyd and Fox Chase seem to always be the lines getting the short end of the stick, which tells me that they have the fewest riders. Then again, maybe pairing them would give SEPTA the ability to just axe the whole line.

Pairing them would at least allow 2 car service to run on the R6 and trains to run through instead of having to terminate at Suburban Station to "save money".

Would be nice if you could actually get a R6 timetable somewhere...

jfrey40535 wrote:Would be nice if you could actually get a R6 timetable somewhere...

They're not out on the racks, but in that little customer service office in Suburban, R6 Cynwyd schedules are available. I got one.

reldnahkram wrote:The R4 was supposed to be Bryn Mawr - Fox Chase. The Swampdoodle connection was supposed to be built, linking the ex-PRR Chestnut Hill West line to the ex-RDG Norristown line. The R1 was supposed to be Airport - West Trenton (if you look in Suburban Station, some of the R3 WT displays have a yellow background), the R3 was to be Elwyn to CHW. I'm not sure whether R5 trains were to stop between Bryn Mawr and 30th St. The pairings were made by Prof. Vuchic at UPenn and were based on ridership numbers.

On a side note, would it make more sense these days (based on ridership) to pair CHW and Norristown and Fox Chase and Cynwyd? I have no idea what the numbers work out to, but Cynwyd and Fox Chase seem to always be the lines getting the short end of the stick, which tells me that they have the fewest riders. Then again, maybe pairing them would give SEPTA the ability to just axe the whole line.

So basically the R4 was to be a portion of the R5? And there would have been no R8 service? WHy did this not happen?

capuzfu wrote:

reldnahkram wrote:The R4 was supposed to be Bryn Mawr - Fox Chase. The Swampdoodle connection was supposed to be built, linking the ex-PRR Chestnut Hill West line to the ex-RDG Norristown line. The R1 was supposed to be Airport - West Trenton (if you look in Suburban Station, some of the R3 WT displays have a yellow background), the R3 was to be Elwyn to CHW. I'm not sure whether R5 trains were to stop between Bryn Mawr and 30th St. The pairings were made by Prof. Vuchic at UPenn and were based on ridership numbers.

On a side note, would it make more sense these days (based on ridership) to pair CHW and Norristown and Fox Chase and Cynwyd? I have no idea what the numbers work out to, but Cynwyd and Fox Chase seem to always be the lines getting the short end of the stick, which tells me that they have the fewest riders. Then again, maybe pairing them would give SEPTA the ability to just axe the whole line.

So basically the R4 was to be a portion of the R5? And there would have been no R8 service? WHy did this not happen?

The Swampdoodle connection was supposed to be built......

but wasn't.

capuzfu wrote:So basically the R4 was to be a portion of the R5?

Not really. It would have provided additional frequency on the inner stations of the Paoli line.

And there would have been no R8 service? Why did this not happen?

R8 was a temporary designation--it wouldn't have been necessary if Swampoodle had been built and the Vuchic plan could be implemented as he wrote it.

As for why it [Swampoodle] didn't happen, I don't know, but in the mid-80s after taking over the railroad, SEPTA management was up to its eyeballs in other issues, like hiring and training enough crews, and repairing bridges that had been condemned. They just weren't capable of doing that and getting Swampoodle built.

Nor did they provide for it during the RailWorks(NSM) project ten years later. They instead rebuilt the existing infrastructure in kind, speed restrictions and all.

What was this "Swampoodle"? Where would it have been located?

capuzfu wrote:What was this "Swampoodle"? Where would it have been located?

The Swampoodle connection was to have been built between the R6 Norristown Line and the R8 Chestnut Hill West Line at a point where the two lines parallel between North Philadelphia/16th Street Jct. and 22nd Street.

The two lines had slightly different elevations, and the Swampoodle connection would have consisted of flyovers, or the Chestnut Hill line would have been re-graded to meet the level of the Norristown Line.

There was another purpose to Swampoodle...and that was to eliminate Amtrak delays to the Chestnut Hill West by moving them down to the Norristown Line.

And it was named Swampoodle in reflection of the neighborhood name.

Silverliner II wrote:There was another purpose to Swampoodle...and that was to eliminate Amtrak delays to the Chestnut Hill West by moving them down to the Norristown Line.

It also would reduce SEPTA trackage payments to Amtrak and better balance out traffic on the ex-Reading and ex-PRR sides of the system, which also would save money.

Would it also reduce the travel time from Chestnut Hill to Suburban Station from 32 minutes to 24 minutes? Comparing the R6 and R8 schedules, it seems that Suburban to North Broad is much faster than Suburban to North Philadelphia stations:

- save about 8 minutes travel time
- save about 2 miles travel distance
- mutliply the time and distance savings by the number of trains and crews per year
- add the savings in Amtrak track fees
- and add the increased ridership from the faster service

If the capital cost can be reasonable, it looks like a good investment.

Lucius Kwok wrote:Would it also reduce the travel time from Chestnut Hill to Suburban Station from 32 minutes to 24 minutes? Comparing the R6 and R8 schedules, it seems that Suburban to North Broad is much faster than Suburban to North Philadelphia stations:

- save about 8 minutes travel time
- save about 2 miles travel distance
- mutliply the time and distance savings by the number of trains and crews per year
- add the savings in Amtrak track fees
- and add the increased ridership from the faster service

Plus there's the prospect of saving equipment and crews by balancing trips on the ex-PRR and ex-RDG sides of the system (currently 8/7 in the weekday base, 8/6 Saturday, and 7/6 Sunday because SEPTA runs half-hourly weekday base service to Lansdale and no base service to Cynwyd/Manayunk).

If the capital cost can be reasonable, it looks like a good investment.

It does look like a good investment, and I can't imagine the capital cost would be a lot. The big expenses would be for interlockings at each end.

The R6 and R8 are parallel for about 1000 feet. The cheapest solution would have the R8 line reduced to a single track just before a junction with the R6 outbound track.

Especially since there is an elevation difference as well. The R8 mainline is about 15 to 20 feet higher than the R6 at the 16th Street end, and almost level at the bridges over 22nd Street.

Yeah. The R6 is climbing as it goes from 16th to 22nd Streets, while the R8 is descending from its bridge over the SEPTA main line. A 2% grade allows for up to 20 feet of elevation change in the 1000 feet available. I don't think elaborate fly-overs will be necessary.