Question about DL&W connection in Utica

I know that the DL&W Utica branch terminated at the current NYSW terminal (right? maybe I don't know!)

My question is, was there ever a direct connection to the current MA&N? Did trains have to cross the current CSX main or were they able to go over or under the main to get to Lake Placid, Watertown or other points North? Finally, if so, is this access still available?

Thanks!

Before the current MA&N was part of the NYC RR it was the Utica & Black River and later came under the RW&O. The NYO&W had a connection over the top of the DL&W and NYC to connect with the RW&O for a few years in the late 1880's early 1890's. But after the RW&O sold to the NYC the connection bridge was removed and no trace exists that I have ever found. It was taken out as there was no need for it. The DL&W and NYC interchanged freight and some went north, mainly coal to points on the St. LAwrence Division to Watertown and the Adirondack Division to points north including the Lake Placid branch and perhaps Montreal or Malone and Rutland points also.

The NYC took the delivered interchange from DL&W and O&W and switched it into approriate trains for other points. This was an era of loose car railroading and there of course were no unit trains as we know them today. Although at times the quarry at Boonville shipped alot of stone in the 1930's to the DL&W for interchange to the SNY RR at Richfield Spgs for delivery to Oneonta area for a Route 206 highway project.

In the 1960's the EL ran stone to Binghamton for I- 81 and Route 17 Road Projects and these were blocks of stone cars in with the local freight and occaisioned the rare use of F-units on the Utica Branch which was normally very heavy on GP-7's.

The DL&W terminated at Union Station on trackage now removed entering towards the NorthWest corner of the building. Part of the tail track was still existant a few years ago on the north side of the NYO&W freighthouse.

The DL&W ended at the north - compass east- end of their yard just beyond the freighthouse near the former Washington Street Grade Crossing where they had a low home signal governing entrance and crossover into the NYC yard.

Joe,
At one time there was a crossover from the NYS&W to the Conrail Utica yard, which is MA&N's current yard. Conrail derailed a vantrain in the late 1980's or very early 1990's and it tore up the crossover. Conrail never replaced it. The derailment happened prior to MA&N buying the yard and trackage to Lyons Falls. Somewhere in my pictures I have some shots of NYS&W locomotives doing interchange work and coming throught the crossover into the NYS&W yard.

Thanks fellas.

So if I have this straight, a DL&W/E-L or NYSW train would cross over the water level route main in Utica- what, 3-4 tracks- to access what is now the MA&N. In doing so, and crossing the old NYC, they obviously got permission from the NYC or CR dispatcher and were thus at the mercy of the bigger road?

Am I close? I am obviously new to this. Thanks for the patience!

Joe

Yes, I think you are getting the idea. From early, early days the process was for the DL&W to deliver interchange to the NYC and for the NYC to come over to the DL&W to drop. This meant that DL&W crews going to NYC with freight for NYC interchange would pull up to Washington Street area and get on the circuit letting the dispatcher know they were there. If no response there was also a phone box to rattle him. When traffic cleared you would get an approach on the low home signal and the CTC operator would line the route so that the DL&W (EL) could cross over and I think onto the South Control siding and onto NYC Track 3? I forget the numbers but on the north side of the passenger platforms and powerhouse. They would then drop and return light to the DL&W. In older days there was a switchman's shanty I think between the NYC Track 1 and South Control Siding and yard ladder to line the trains over manually. Of course this was not as much for the DL&W moves as the many, many NYC moves between main tracks and the yard. The NYC in return would deliver to the DL&W and return light. In the 1970's the pool train that ran on account of the Poughkeepsie Bridge burning originally came in on Track 6 NYC south of the mains past Tower 30 and into the EL yard until a derailment in later 1974 took out that switch. Then the trains came in through the yard and over the double crossovers. In CR days EL yard crews became based at the PC Tower 30 and towed the Sherburne local across with a yard engine to the EL side where the local crew got the train at the former EL yard office. Later the local crew also went on duty at Tower 30 and pulled their own train across the mains and returned it back to the PC side.

The NYSW both picked up and delivered to CR as I recall but was based on the EL side going over across only to make interchange until the derailment CA 1990-92 - (it was in April or May as the weather was turning nice). After that CR dropped and picked up off the main into the NYSW yard,

Hope this isn't too confusing.

The derailment that took place that put the end to the power crossover between the DL&W/EL/NYS&W crossover to the CR yard was in early 1992. The train symbol was PXSE (Perishable Express to Selkirk, NY).
There were a handful of stack cars on the head end of the train full of wine. Once the dust settled at the derailment site (that wiped out CP-237) the air was filled with an interesting aroma.

Like a previous post mentioned, Conrail never replaced the interlocking, nor did the put an automatic signal put at the former location of CP-237. This made for a long signal block thru Utica on what is now the CSX mainline from CP235 to CP239, much longer than the normal 2+/- mile signal blocks. Hopefully, CSX will some day put a signal there.

Yesterday at breakfast with a bunch of railroad guys, including the engineer on PXSE, he said he thought that was going to be the end of him. His train was eastbound on Tk 2 when it derailed (from debris piled up on the tracks that wedged under the engine until he hit the interlocking switches) and it caused the train to derail on the north side of Tk 2 heading toward Tk 1. It plowed into the ballast and stopped just short of striking the Genesee St overhead bridge abutments.

DL&W did run troop trains (1950's) headed north to Camp/Fort Drum. Assume there was just a power change?

I had in my possession at one time...gave them to the Pennsylvania State RR Museum at Strasburg...the Dispatcher's Sheets for the 50's for the S&U. THey showed the trains going to Utica but no return of engines. It was thought by some I spoke with that the engines (E8's and F's) went through to Camp Drum from Utica via the Black RIver line but equipment went to Syracuse, especially the engnes, via NYC's Watertown route. Don't hold me to this as it is conjecture from anecdotal reports I received.

Info I have and one photo indicate that the power either turned light as an extra or moved south in consist of freight trains.

In steam days there were some 1400's that ran the line and in diesel days F units and several H-24-66's (Train Masters)

I have a photo of two TM's running light southbound

What is the extent of the DS records at PA RR Museum for Utica Branch movements ?

DS sheets are for the years 1950 or 51 through 58 or 59...whichever year they moved th DS from Bingahmton to Scranton. S&U sheets. In with the Taber collection of DL&W stuff.