Potential Route For Toronto - Chicago

george matthews wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote:I'd say make Windsor a Pre-Clearenece station like with Vancouver.

Once again, compare Eurostar procedures. Once you get on the train, from a platform within the immigration Security area, the doors are locked and the law says they cannot be opened except at another Security area. In normal times that's no problem but if a train is delayed between authorised stations passengers cannot be let out. I am not sure what happens if there is serious emergency, especially on a train entering the country with people who have not been through immigration.

I actually inquired once to an Amtrak conductor about how CBSA handles such an situtation. He told me actually that the agency pretty much use the same plan they use if an international flight crashes which is they get the manifest from Amtrak, get a list from first responders that are on scene then follow up with customs either on scene with passengers that are fine or at the hospital with the ones that are not. This is what they did when they had the Air France crash at YYZ a few years back.

I wouldn't expect full Eurostar-like procedures on the 49th. They only make sense because the UK isn't for one a Schengen member and the only way in and out by train is the Chunnel.
Pretty much the smart idea would make Windsor the Pre-Clearence control point for both US CBP and CBSA where a Amtrak Bluewater service would connect with a VIA Corridor train where passengers clear customs and board independently of each train.

Pretty much the smart idea would make Windsor the Pre-Clearence control point for both US CBP and CBSA where a Amtrak Bluewater service would connect with a VIA Corridor train where passengers clear customs and board independently of each train.

The problem there is that such facilities look a lot more cost-effective if there are several trains a day. Otherwise the immigration personnel have to come in from somewhere else. If the Amtrak train is not on time - that happens sometimes - they may be kicking their heels with nothing to do. That would be quite popular with the actual personnel I expect but their managers would be unhappy. Eurostar stations can be manned permanently because of several trains a day, or even one train an hour.

george matthews wrote:

Pretty much the smart idea would make Windsor the Pre-Clearence control point for both US CBP and CBSA where a Amtrak Bluewater service would connect with a VIA Corridor train where passengers clear customs and board independently of each train.

The problem there is that such facilities look a lot more cost-effective if there are several trains a day. Otherwise the immigration personnel have to come in from somewhere else. If the Amtrak train is not on time - that happens sometimes - they may be kicking their heels with nothing to do. That would be quite popular with the actual personnel I expect but their managers would be unhappy. Eurostar stations can be manned permanently because of several trains a day, or even one train an hour.

Well, my idea would be to have all Bluewater Service trains cross over to Windsor to connect passengers off to the daily VIA corridor trains so customs officers for both sides would be busy.

AgentSkelly wrote:

george matthews wrote:

Pretty much the smart idea would make Windsor the Pre-Clearence control point for both US CBP and CBSA where a Amtrak Bluewater service would connect with a VIA Corridor train where passengers clear customs and board independently of each train.

The problem there is that such facilities look a lot more cost-effective if there are several trains a day. Otherwise the immigration personnel have to come in from somewhere else. If the Amtrak train is not on time - that happens sometimes - they may be kicking their heels with nothing to do. That would be quite popular with the actual personnel I expect but their managers would be unhappy. Eurostar stations can be manned permanently because of several trains a day, or even one train an hour.

Well, my idea would be to have all Bluewater Service trains cross over to Windsor to connect passengers off to the daily VIA corridor trains so customs officers for both sides would be busy.

Considering that all the Wolverine trains run to Pontiac, how about going the opposite route and have all the VIA Corridor trains terminate at Detroit, with the customs control there instead?

Silverliner II wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote: Well, my idea would be to have all Bluewater Service trains cross over to Windsor to connect passengers off to the daily VIA corridor trains so customs officers for both sides would be busy.

Considering that all the Wolverine trains run to Pontiac, how about going the opposite route and have all the VIA Corridor trains terminate at Detroit, with the customs control there instead?

That would work better.I got my Michigan service trains all confused; kept thinking Bluewater trains terminated in Detroit.

What active rail crossings are there at Detroit/Windsor? Is the MCRR Tunnel still active?

If VIA trains were to cross into Detroit, or Amtrak trains to Windsor, then the CPR's (former Michigan Central) Detroit River Tunnel would be the only option still available although getting to the downtown Amtrak station might be a bit if a trick.

The RR Tunnel is still active and used by CP. There has been talk (for a long time) of VIA rerouting trains on CP from Chatham to a new station in Windsor on the direct line to the tunnel. VIA’s current station in Windsor is the only major station in the corridor that hasn’t been extensively upgraded so this gives me hope that something might be in the works.

A joint US/Canadian facility is certainly feasible. The new Interstate Highway border crossing at Coutts, Alberta/Sweet Grass, Montana is joint facility and US Customs/Immigration Officers work at all major Canadian Airports. Just seams to be so complecated when rail is involved!

AgentSkelly wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote: Well, my idea would be to have all Bluewater Service trains cross over to Windsor to connect passengers off to the daily VIA corridor trains so customs officers for both sides would be busy.

Considering that all the Wolverine trains run to Pontiac, how about going the opposite route and have all the VIA Corridor trains terminate at Detroit, with the customs control there instead?

That would work better.I got my Michigan service trains all confused; kept thinking Bluewater trains terminated in Detroit.

Yeah, the Blue Water is the train to Port Huron (formerly the International). Of course now, you can't make connections to either Sarnia-Toronto train unless you overnight in either city...

Ken V wrote:If VIA trains were to cross into Detroit, or Amtrak trains to Windsor, then the CPR's (former Michigan Central) Detroit River Tunnel would be the only option still available although getting to the downtown Amtrak station might be a bit if a trick.

The backing moves currently aren't impossible to deal with, but I don't think either Detroit Amtrak or Windsor VIA has customs facilities, or room for them. Windsor and VIA have been talking about moving their station to the CP Rail main leading through the tunnel - hopefully they'd leave space for a proper customs house.

I'd also like to see a downtown Detroit station rather than the one north of downtown, built to easily accomodate train service from Chicago through to Windsor (as well as to Saginaw, Lansing and Toledo), but that's another story.

mtuandrew wrote:

Ken V wrote:If VIA trains were to cross into Detroit, or Amtrak trains to Windsor, then the CPR's (former Michigan Central) Detroit River Tunnel would be the only option still available although getting to the downtown Amtrak station might be a bit if a trick.

The backing moves currently aren't impossible to deal with, but I don't think either Detroit Amtrak or Windsor VIA has customs facilities, or room for them. Windsor and VIA have been talking about moving their station to the CP Rail main leading through the tunnel - hopefully they'd leave space for a proper customs house.

I'd also like to see a downtown Detroit station rather than the one north of downtown, built to easily accomodate train service from Chicago through to Windsor (as well as to Saginaw, Lansing and Toledo), but that's another story.

I just had to dig up some maps to look at how this works since I can't remember where exactly the MCRR tunnel starts and ends. I see what you mean, it can be done but to me its borderline annoying (well anytime you have to go reverse to go forward is a bad idea to me)

As for a customs house, requirements for custom facilities have changed since they don't require so much dedicated space. Both US CBP and CBSA I know do have several mobile office trailers at various crossings to process passengers. They COULD be deployed at Windsor right next to the track so passengers would hop off and enter the mobile office.

Though, there is a part of me that wants to have US CBP convert an Amfleet to a customs car that would be dropped off and be stationary at a station and a VIA Budd for CBSA which a transfer platform would be placed between the cars so that passengers would just cross over.

I would also second the motion for the international to be brought back, As a matter of fact I'm working with a research organization that at this moment were drafting a purposed train for that route. It to run through detroit/windsor not sarnia/port huron. with a new intermediate Amtrak station to be built across from MCS in Detroit,(also for US customs). This new route will also be serving Toledo since there a major city that has no daytime passenger Amtrak service. this would not disrupt or cancel any Michigan service route. I use to ride the International at least once every month, So I know the joys and convience of this train. the whole current route, and changing trains in buffalo, and the long layover defers 90%-95% of the potential customers our stats have shown. I was actually on the final run from Toronto to Chicago in 2004. I found the superliners in the winter quite comfortable but the mix match amfleet I and horizon fleet cars in the summer were nothing more than a joke, and showed how this route was mismanaged and under appreciated. The maple leaf ALWAYS has amfleet cars. Also VIA rail chose the worst route sarnia to toronto by way of the georgetown trackage,( Northern corridor route) which is not there main corridor. The train used superliner cars which the VIA crew loved but Management was scared of because of the speed restrictions on those cars, and there height. ( VIA management doesn't want anything that tall, IE: taller than there locomotive). For Locomotive power what need to be done in my opinion is for Amtrak and VIA rail to do a joint locomotive project for ALL there international train runs (except cascades). Modify specific locomotives to have a hep converter / regulator built in, be able to use 3rd rail power if available, and cab control and signaling that could be used on both sides of the border with a ATC system. Lets see... What could we use?.. ooh yea.. Amtrak still has a few handfull's of P40's stored as dead in Bear deleware. It couldn't hurt now could it. Customs is the only current major issue on the matter. I love all the ideas from above and will run them past the research team, however the problem is not what we think customs should do its, more so what are they willing to do. I would like to hear more from anyone in this forum with ideas and concepts. Nothing will be overlooked. SO PLEASE DON'T BE SHY I KNOW THIS BOARD STARTED A YEAR AGO, BUT TODAY LOOKS TO BE BRIGHTER TIMES! I joined the forum specifically for this topic.

What was the reason behind not keeping this train, now the Adirondack is in jeporady and I wonder if its for the same reason, funding.

I don't recall funding being explicitly stated as a reason for cutting the International and returning to the Blue Water but it must have been a factor. After all, the Blue Water only requires one trainset whereas the International required two. To be fair, VIA did pay for its share of the two sets and now uses one of its own for the substitute Toronto-Sarnia service. At the time, Michigan, who footed the Amtrak portion of the bill, claimed the new train schedule would be more reliable (mostly by eliminating delays at Customs) and better suit the needs of its residents (e.g. day trips to Chicago).

Kaback9 wrote:What was the reason behind not keeping this train, now the Adirondack is in jeporady and I wonder if its for the same reason, funding.

I heard customs delays are what the mess with the Adirondack is now. And yet somehow, the Maple Leaf is not affected by that. I've ridden the Leaf a dozen round trips in the last 4 years; never had any delays due to Customs. In fact, they were faster getting through the train than driving across at times...

This is a list of three reasons I heard for the discontinuance of the International, whether official or not; the sources were from various industry and railfan publications:

- VIA tired of trains arriving late from the U.S. side due to freight interference

- Delays at customs inspections, especially when the train was late and customs officers had to be called to come to Port Huron for trains entering the States

- Michigan's desire for a daylight train between Port Huron and Chicago

I just rode the Adirondack and Customs was only a problem with the Canadians, the US guys were done and we were on our way, our only delay was we did not have a P32ACDM to take us into Penn Station, so we waited at Albany 45 minutes while they got a switcher (or as Amtrak likes to call it Emergency power) to be ready in NYP to pick us up. If you ask me customs should be done at each terminal like the Airlines do. The Adirondack is in trouble because NY State who funds the train is having problems.

I think its ridiculous we are getting rid of our international services if anything we should be keeping them and expanding.