Tolling US-422, the R6 Extension and Public Input at DVRPC

Interesting...

It doesn't look good for 422 based on what happened in Royersford tonight. From the looks of that video, DVRPC sure isn't doing themselves any favors either.
http://www.timesherald.com/articles/201 ... =fullstory

Well the proponents of the project were in a pretty tough spot, it being a meeting called to gin up opposition. And the format is such that it can be kind of intimidating to people who aren't going along with the crowd.

There are plenty of people who would support the project if someone else were paying for it. Nobody wants to pay more. The problem is that if we wait for someone else to pay (i.e. Harrisburg or Washington), it'll be twenty years or more before anything gets done, and by that time 422 will be gridlocked longer and longer, and businesses will start moving away.

The counties and DVRPC will be having their meetings in the fall. At the last round of their meetings in 2009, people were clear didn't like the tolls, but they were more open-minded, especially the businesspeople. I'm sure the counties will wait to see what the response is there before considering abandoning the project. And yes, the project would be totally abandoned if a local funding source isn't forthcoming.

I don't know Matt, it sounded to me like people were jumping ship and ready to bury the project.

Joe Hoeffel came out and said they can toll the road without the train
The Montgomery County Chamber of Commerce said they don't support the project
And not a single resident spoke out in favor of the plan.

I also have to disagree with your assessment of the forum, Matt. Rep. Vereb read all of the questions submitted by residents so no one would feel intimidated--panelists and residents alike. But regardless, it will take 20 years anyway since that's how long it takes for DVRPC's "planners" to do their "studies" (see: Quakertown)

PA-TEC had a table at the front door of the auditorium to interact with residents before the meeting began and solicit feedback, and the resounding message was "no new taxes", "no Tolls-For-Trains". Some residents supported the train, but everyone made it clear they didn't want to be singled out with tolls to pay for it. They had a good point: 309 and 202 were expanded without tolls, why 422?

PA-TEC has been saying for months now that this project is unfeasible - the riders aren't there, the money's not there, and the interest isn't there. We're not sure why DVRPC continues to push this project.

jfrey40535 wrote:PA-TEC has been saying for months now that this project is unfeasible - the riders aren't there, the money's not there, and the interest isn't there.

Relevant discussions I've had make it clear to me that there will be no rail expansion or restoration of ANY line for the forseeable future.

General public support is weak, there are no State or Federal funds available, and the public feels the existing tax and fee burdens are already excessive.

No sitting elected representative will support these projects right now for those reasons.

Organizations like PA-TEC have been outspoken, and have literally become the 'Tea Party' of the process.

Like the Tea Party, they will help prevent any real bipartisan progress for the short time they will be in existance. Andy Warhol was usually correct.

Bob, your assessment is correct, there will be no rail expansion anywhere in the future. Polarization is sometimes necessary because of the poor ideas coming from the "planners" who are coming up with crackpot proposals. We see it in 422, Wawa and in Jenkintown. The region's next bad transit project will be the region's last transit project.

Give careful thought to the implications of permanently linking tolls with transit. How will CTD be funded in the future? It could mean tolling Girard Avenue to keep the 15 running.

Clearfield wrote:Organizations like PA-TEC have been outspoken, and have literally become the 'Tea Party' of the process.

I was at the meeting last night; it was brutal. In that respect, comparing PA-TEC to the 'Tea Party' is a cop out.

PA-TEC is more like the voice of reason and common sense, and want the true facts (http://planphilly.com/dvrpc-says-its-no ... t-know-law). Their stated goal is "promote responsible investment in transit expansion," and 422 lends itself to that goal in a big way.

The 'Tea Party' is nothing more than an astroturfing group for the GOP, who goal is to disguise the efforts of a political and/or commercial entity as an independent public reaction to some political entity. Their goal is to manipulate public opinion.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:There are plenty of people who would support the project if someone else were paying for it. Nobody wants to pay more. The problem is that if we wait for someone else to pay (i.e. Harrisburg or Washington), it'll be twenty years or more before anything gets done, and by that time 422 will be gridlocked longer and longer, and businesses will start moving away.

Indeed. People are willing to support something...but if you ask them for money, then no way! I wish some of my tolls on the Turnpike would go to establishing a train service.

Also, with people advocating to "cut spending", well...transportation is often one of the top 3 things to cut. It's getting more difficult to get the federal and state money, and there is a backlog of PennDOT projects throughout the state, not to mention that the Turnpike Commission has its debt thanks to Act 44. With the re-authorization of the Transportation Funding Bill, it seems like the Federal Government is trying to combine programs (higher competition for funds) and the plans are that they won't pay for more than 50% of a project. Other states and cities are surpassing us in terms of transportation expansion not (just) because "our tax money goes out there", but because they are willing to jump on board and find ways to pay for projects, even through LOANS.

One issue I find in this article is that the leaders keep backpedaling and are becoming wishy-washy. Saying that they don't need a train after all (well, what are you going to do when you start the roadway construction? Just allow the roadway to jam up even more and provide no alternatives?) and if the governor approves the recommendations from the Transportation Coalition, they won't need to toll after all (well, do you think he's just going to drop money onto a project with so much outcry against said project with people refusing to support it? A local match actually give a project a much better chance at getting funded, after all) just doesn't make sense and further diminishes confidence in the project.

I know I'm a little late to the party here...

Clearfield I can assure you we are not becoming the "Tea Party." That's a bit harsh but I've come to expect your humor so I'm not bothered by it.

I see this issue as two-fold: 1) What the true plan for the 422 corridor is, and 2) TRANSIT FUNDING.

On the first point, the backpedaling that Tritransit speaks immediately confirmed widely held suspicions that these 422 presentations have little to do with either highway or rail expansion, and everything to do with creating a new patronage authority. The giveaways are numerous: 1) The long delays in releasing study data, other than a few round numbers here and there. 2) The obvious flaws in the math - $2.65 * 422's full length drivership does not get you to $60 million. 3) The lack of ANY traffic studies at the foot of 422 in KOP since the new ramps opened almost 6 years ago now. 4) a projection of who will use this train - what are the attraction-destination pairs this project will serve? 5) an explanation of how an expanded highway and a new rail line won't undercut each other - remember that train ridership will be diminished if there is less traffic, and toll revenue will be diminished if there is good rail service. Etc.

On the contrary, the "tolling authority" aspect of this seems pretty well fleshed out - a Tri-county authority, appointed by commissioners, responsible to the local counties, etc., and covered by the right-to-know law (oh, wait, they didn't say that yet.)

Let's not confuse a disingenuous "rail project" with progress.

On funding, I'm going to pick that up in another thread. I think it's too important to limit that conversation to 422. However, I would warn against oversimplifying it as "No expansion is going to happen." Don't tell me we're lagging behind the rest of the country because people along 422 don't want to pay $12 a day in tolls.

Frankly I don't mind tolling 422, for reasons grounded in my understanding of the transportation hierarchy. All Intersates (and related limited-access highways) should be tolled in my opinion*, preferably via long-term ground leases on the roadways (if not outright sale thereof). The issue is thus not the theory, but on the enaction--public tolling authorities, especially when implemented on long-complete infrastructure works, are nothing if not blatant patronage mills. Much better IMO would be a sale or long-term ground lease to private enterprise, the proceeds of which can be used to fund some other public works in the region; each of us, I'm sure, has a list of pet projects.

*Such a similar being prevalent in Europe.

Meanwhile, the OTHER traffic backup story of the day, with almost half the daily volume as 422 and with a bus getting NOWHERE

as opposed to 76? everyone wants their traffic backup addressed first

Given the backups on 422 every day (and I can set my watch in the morning by when the first slowdown is reported), tolling it in the peak hours is a regional benefit, no matter what is done with the money, short of literally setting it on fire. Everything else (including, I'm sad to say, the RDG reactivation) is details.

Of course, everyone here would prefer that the money not be lit on fire, and also that the RDG reactivation happen. There are good reasons to want further study of things like ramp counts at the KoP interchange, that can affect the business model. A well done, low overhead, smoothly running toll, that funds a fast, frequent rail service, is clearly the best alternative. But asserting that a badly done, corrupt, inefficient tolling plan is worse than doing nothing is, in this case, wrong. (And I say this as someone who thinks corruption is the #1 problem facing the Philadelphia area.) The real criticism to be made is that all this is taking so very, very long.

Some random ponderings:

I dislike tolls and taxes as much as anybody but IMO 422 is "pay now or pay now". All that matters is deciding who gets the money. People can either throw $$$ down the rat-hole of wasted time, wasted gas, extra stress on them and their car, or they can pay a toll that might get traffic moving again. The kicker is that the former is seen as a choice - even if it isn't - while the latter is imposed from outside, and in our society personal choice trumps nearly everything. And given the disasters that pass for government in both DC and Harrisburg, I fully understand why someone would be reluctant to send them another dime.

That said, it still seems to me that tolling 422 is as close to a conservative plan as anything I've seen short of letting everyone get out with picks and shovels to build their own personal roads. The money would ostensibly stay local and it would put two public services partially on a pay-as-you-go basis. Isn't that what the TP'ers, etc. have been calling for when they fulminate against programs funded at a national level?

Or, to borrow from Sen. Russell Long, the slogan should be "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree!" ?