Tired and Cold

nick11a wrote:Well, I know I'll be a bit POed when they erradicate ORTs.

Nick, don't take it personally regarding our (trainmen) negative feelings towards the ORT's. I'm sure you use it in the correct direction and during the proper time periods (if you travel to or from NYC, Newark, or Hoboken). However, a large percentage of customers either play dumb or are dumb. And that makes for extended arguments and "discussions" which interefere with the safe operation or on-time performance of the train. When a brakeman is stuck trying to step up an ORT while he/she should be opening the doors, there is a problem. When the train sits waiting for police needed to remove a customer who refuses to pay a step up, there is a problem. While these scenarios also arise during "run-of-the-mill" fare disputes, the ORT use on peak trains causes many more disputes than anything else.

Suffice to say, If you think this past week was bad, just wait until this blizzard does it's thing.
The problems with equipment will most likely mount.

mcmannors wrote:Nick, don't take it personally regarding our (trainmen) negative feelings towards the ORT's. I'm sure you use it in the correct direction and during the proper time periods (if you travel to or from NYC, Newark, or Hoboken). However, a large percentage of customers either play dumb or are dumb. And that makes for extended arguments and "discussions" which interefere with the safe operation or on-time performance of the train. When a brakeman is stuck trying to step up an ORT while he/she should be opening the doors, there is a problem. When the train sits waiting for police needed to remove a customer who refuses to pay a step up, there is a problem. While these scenarios also arise during "run-of-the-mill" fare disputes, the ORT use on peak trains causes many more disputes than anything else.

Don't worry, I don't take it personally. And yes, I do see that happening A LOT. And I do understand why Traimen are happy. It means less hassles. And it also means less confusion to passengers. But to a college student like myself, it means I have to shell out more money.

I believe it would be a big mistake for NJT to get rid of the ORTs - it will push many people over the edge who currently teeter on the "take the train" or "drive" decision, especially on the weekends. I believe they would lose more revenue by lost ridership than they will gain by increased fares. And shouldn't NJT try to encourage people to use it, not discourage?

How about NJT coming up with a better way of dealing with step-up fares, like selling them in advance from ticket offices/vending machines, or better yet, just "quietly" accepting them on peak trains? How much revenue do the step-up fares actually generate? I for one would buy step-up tickets in advance - I currently commute to Manhattan from Short Hills a couple of times a week, and find myself on peak trains every so often. I used to buy a bunch of ORTs and one-ways to try and avoid the step-up charge on the train, but I would always be left with an imbalance of ORT RTXs and one-ways. If they sold them in advance, I could keep a supply of them on hand for just these occasions, so I don't have to take up the conductor's time (and rummage for change).

As for the irate and ignorant (intentionally or otherwise) commuter who is not using an ORT correctly, maybe more announcements like I heard yesterday on the 4:43 from NYP to Summit would help. The conductor clearly stated several times that ORT tickets will require a step-up fare. Education of the public, consistently, clearly, and OFTEN, can go a long way.

rbenko wrote:How about NJT coming up with a better way of dealing with step-up fares, like selling them in advance from ticket offices/vending machines, or better yet, just "quietly" accepting them on peak trains?

Just look the other way to placate all the bunko artists while the surrounding passengers paid the proper fare? I don't think so.

More and more people will start paying the wrong fare. It's not a good idea to not have an off-peak ticket -- some people simply can't afford that big of a jump in their commuting costs. However, it DEFINITELY is not fair to allow people to not pay the fare just because they feel like it. This burns me up at Orange St on the subway -- most of these peoples are not paying the fare, and they are also irritating me by making a lot of noise and being rude.

I think LIRR's got it right -- especially in my case, because I get shafted for not returning to the same place on a regular basis (NWK-Ramsey-Lyndhurst), etc.

How many 'bunko' (?) artists are really out there, trying to scam NJT out of a couple of bucks? From my anecdotal observations on peak trains over the years (I was a daily commuter for over seven years), the vast majority of riders have monthly or weekly tickets. Would NJT really lose out on a ton of money by relaxing the rules a bit? As it is now, I am asked for the step-up fare about two-thirds of the time - the other third, the conductor takes the OTR ticket without comment. However, I'm always ready to pay the fare when asked.

Getting back to my other point, it would be great if NJT would sell step-up tickets in advance - it would save the conductor precious time and aggravation, and I would probably be more apt to hand over a step-up ticket without being asked.

rbenko wrote:the vast majority of riders have monthly or weekly tickets. Would NJT really lose out on a ton of money by relaxing the rules a bit?

Maybe not on day one, but once people got wind of this, alot more peole would buy ORTs for peak trains. Then yeah, NJT would really lose alot of money.

I'm with the majority opinion here – get rid of the ORTs. Would make life much simpler. And people wouldn't be staring at the TVMs dumbfounded when trying to figure out off-peaks and not.

Even if there is only 5 percent of the people on the train who are trying to "rip off" NJT, on a rush hour train, with ORT tickets, (and I don't mean those who don't know or realize they have ORT's) there are often easily 1000 people on it, meaning that there would be roughly 50 of these people. Ten cars equal 5 a car, and on most trains, the trainman works between 1 and a half and 2 cars, so anywhere from 8 to 10 people would be causing a hassle.

Thinking back to the trains that I have worked, thats a pretty accurate number, in my opinion, in the amount of people I have to deal with and wrestle the money out of.

Of course, some trains have nearly all monthly passes, along wiht some cars having all monthly passengers, while other cars on teh same train have dozens of people with ORT's.

A trainman, who actually collects the step up on a consistant basis, will get the passengers "trained" and those people who have had to pay in the past, will either get their money out, because they KNOW they will have to pay, or will move to another car and trainman, and try to get over on them. Its quite funny to see what people will go through to save a few bucks.

Jtgshu wrote: A trainman, who actually collects the step up on a consistant basis, will get the passengers "trained" and those people who have had to pay in the past, will either get their money out, because they KNOW they will have to pay, or will move to another car and trainman, and try to get over on them. Its quite funny to see what people will go through to save a few bucks.

I don't know, Jt, my experience is that the people giving us the most grief regarding the step ups are people who rarely ride and don't ride enough to get "trained". In other words, I have never seen a person who I had a "situation" with return at a later date with the correct ticket or have their money ready. Maybe, because of that "negative experience" they had, they either made sure they took off-peak trains from then on, or maybe they never returned to riding the train at all. On the peak train that I work, we've had the same 3 crew members for the last 2 years or so, so it's doubtful that they are trying their luck in another car. As you know, things are a lot more "intimate" on the RVL.

The orginal post is great. I'm so glad I'm not doing the daily commute to NY any more.

Sounds like things were so much easier when RTX's or ORT's (seems to be backt to RTX lately) were allowed on the evening trains. I think much of the problem has to do with the TVM's. I know what they are trying to say but it's in some managment mumbo-jumbo that doesn't make sense to the normal person. A simple statement "if you plan on returning between (insert time) on a weekday please purchase full fare tickets"

Jnewman I read your message where you mention the express trains whizzing past your station while you're stuck waiting for a local. I'm curious what station you ride from. I don't think you said. Tommy

I usually go out of Broad St. Elizabeth.

jnewman wrote:I usually go out of Broad St. Elizabeth.

Broad Street? Ever find yourself wishing the Jersey Central was still around? LOL Tommy

Broad Street? Ever find yourself wishing the Jersey Central was still around? LOL Tommy

Do I ever!