Doors that don't lock on Amtrak

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:28 am This is a historic railway operation, not taxpayer subsidized mass transit or intercity rail.

It's operating on a publicly owned and taxpayer subsidized ROW and any problems that train has that have a negative impact on taxpayer subsidized services. Not only that, the cost of caring for the injured is picked up by taxpayers. It's all private gain and public risk to allow this company to continue operating as it has.

Given the number of other exemptions in place with other companies for the same company, I'd not be surprised to learn this operator has violated the rules of the excemption.

It's amazing how many people want to argue that easily preventable accidental deaths should be accepted and steps to prevent them should not be taken, and that just because some other country places zero value on human life, everyone else should as well.

"[S]teps to prevent [accidental deaths]" should include an element of personal responsibility on the part of the individual most directly concerned. Best not to leave it to the authorities to look after you.

By the way, the Erie Stillwells vestibules didn't even have doors, just door openings, and the DL&W Boonton Line coaches (Wyatt Earp cars to local fans) only had open platforms. Not considered a problem at the time.

The Long Island ran their old diesel cars with doors open between stops, and the normal bad lighting there that you’d expect from a 50s railcar.

Metro-North’s ACMU doors were totally manual. Supposedly some people would accidentally take an express, and bail out at their stop.

Closed to topic - the real danger on British trains are the bathroom doors. Apparently, they’re famous for doing the slow reveal of the king on his throne…

I found this prohibition notice from July 2023 and the list of existing exemptions. Basically one company has been required to fit central door locking and others are keeping their exemptions. It seems that having crew tell passengers it's okay to open doors themselves is being frowned upon.

American passenger railcars, from the time of the heavyweights, have had locks on the doors.

They are rarely used in revenue service, they are there to secure the cars from hoboes, thieve and other ne’er do wells in a coach yard.

Amtrak has signs everywhere, passengers do not operate doors.

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:43 pm

It's operating on a publicly owned and taxpayer subsidized ROW and any problems that train has that have a negative impact on taxpayer subsidized services. Not only that, the cost of caring for the injured is picked up by taxpayers. It's all private gain and public risk to allow this company to continue operating as it has.

I disagree with your analysis. Why is it taxpayer cost? If someone were to fall out, who would be sued? The carrier. Where's the public risk?

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:43 pm It's amazing how many people want to argue that easily preventable accidental deaths should be accepted and steps to prevent them should not be taken,

We're still waiting for the empirical evidence. Where are the injuries and deaths in the last 20 years?

By the logic being used, if the train has a fiery crash or tumbles off the viaduct, how do the passengers get out? Are they trapped aboard in an inferno??? We an cook up any kind of scary sounding scenario now if we are just using "things that scare me for 1000" as the scientific basis for new regulations.

Although I can't find more details about these incidents, I have found news articles referring to passengers fighting with staff to open doors on a moving Jacobite train in 2022 and doors opening uncontrolled in 20202 but can't find a result other than English courts deciding that West Coast Railways isn't to be trusted with exemptions from the law.

As far as public risk, in Scotland, the NHS provides tax payer subsidized emergency healthcare, all train services that have to work around a train stopped so NHS can retrieve a body or care for the wounded are tax payer subsidized, the ROW operator is taxpayer subsidized.

Since you seem to imply that life has a measurable value and can be monetized, what is the value of a life?

And where is you empirical evidence (since you demand that be presented) that central door locking hasn't reduced death and injury in railways?

So essentially, you have no actual data, and are relying entirely on media reports for your information?

That pretty much explains everything.

RandallW wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:24 am
Since you seem to imply that life has a measurable value and can be monetized, what is the value of a life?

And where is you empirical evidence (since you demand that be presented) that central door locking hasn't reduced death and injury in railways?

Gotta love when we get to this point in the argument. It's not on us to prove that CDL doesn't save lives, although I've done so - we've discussed all manner of Amtrak, New Haven, Lackawanna, etc... cars that don't have central door locking and nobody has jumped/fallen out. So there's that. But also this is a regulation imposed on a private investor-owned business. (a) regulations cannot be arbitrary and capricious; (b) posit enough regulations and you'll cause business to go away (see the over-regulation for 80 years of US railways causing the Penn Central, Rock Island, etc... bankruptcies).

And finally the always laughable "value of human life" argument. If this is the case, dont' leave home. You have a much higher risk of death in a car on public roads than in a train with doors that open. If we really cared about "value of human life" cars would not go over 50mph and phones would shut off over 5mph.

Don't forget we'd have seatbelts on trains with a requirement to keep them on at all times while the train is in motion.

We require that in private cars and aircraft, yet don't require it on buses or trains. Go figure.

Around 30 people per year were dying from falls from trains in the UK prior. no doubt many more injured.As mentioned NHS would wear the cost.
The morning commute was fun to watch on London platforms . quite "proper" looking businessmen would have their own compartment , and a little detraining skip before the train had come to a stop. Woe betide anyone that took their seat or got in the way of the opening door / ejecting person.
I remember running to catch an HST departing kings cross , the guard held the door for us , but it was still an effort to catch it , it was then I came to realise the acceleration of the HST over an ordinary train. won't happen nowadays.

It would be a huge undertaking to retrofit all the heritage operators in the US, who rely on contributions, ticket revenue, and volunteers. On the Naug, we have a contraption on the inside of the door that you have to reach up to release in order to open the door. We also keep the vestibule doors closed, and do not permit riding in them.

Ironically, the one incident we had was when departing, someone wanted to BOARD as the train was departing, and was prevented from opening the door by said contraption after jumping on the trap step and pushing on the door handle. Thankfully, he jumped off safely. He was ejected from the property for being stupid in a no-stupid zone.

If you look closely, Via has horizontal bars that fold up to block passengers from approaching doors and leaning out. I don't see why this is so hard to do as opposed to a central door locking system.

Lest we forget, Mr. Dunville, both the NP and the UP had those bars you note as well. However, I do not recall them on Eastern trains; especially the New Haven MU's I reported on earlier in the topic.

Adding insult to injury, just like the Amtrak A-1's, the NH did not have Dutch Doors except on their Sleepers. I can recall some nutty railfans (promise none of our "New Haven hands", living or deceased, around here) opening the full door "just to get their (photo) shot".

Of course there are signs that read "riding between cars prohibited" and "do not stand in the vestibule".

Makes sense, but on crush load NJT trains, often riders end up doing such.