Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

WhartonAndNorthern wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:46 pm

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:10 pm Brightline is not currently operating on lines with cab signals. The un opened section will be cabs, but the current section is not.

Florida East Coast had their own cab signalling system on the main line. It was slightly different from the US&S 4-aspect system. I wasn't aware it was removed.

4 aspect is not 9 aspect dual code. I stand corrected on the FEC use of CSS.

For those who care, the Cab signal/ACSES package in the Siemens equipment was originally developed by the PH&W corp from Pittsburgh PA. Very very good system, amtrak had it in all of the AEM-7s. When Siemens announced contract with amtrak to build the ACS 64 they quickly went and purchased suppliers, like PH&W so that they could have full inventory and product control over what went into the locomotive.

Since Siemens has taken over PH&W the once great, flawless system has gone down hill fast. ADUs often go dark, esp on control cars. Strange faults happen. TSR radios do not always work right. Then the Metro North software mod came in, and that made even more problems. I do not know if the stuff is still being made at the same facility, but controlled by siemens now or if its being made in Cali with the locomotives. I do know that the siemens propulsion drive system constantly has issues with interference via EMI of the operation of anything radio related to the PTC, ACSES and cab signal system. The cab signals pick up codes in the rail using the above mentioned frequencies. Sometimes the traction motors interfere with this and cause loss of the 250hz carrier codes or all cab signal code together.

Of the total number of Siemens locomotives currently operating, exactly how many are experiencing serious operating problems? Of those that function normally, how are they able to keep running reliably and is there a common reason as to why those that failed do so?

I am just going off what I have seen in my road foreman notices that pop up from time to time on these locomotives. We have yet to see these critters in Albany and from the looks of it I will be a while. They seem to be an over engineered electrical computerized nightmare. Locomotives are pretty simple, diesel engine turns a generator to make electricity to supply the traction motors to turn wheels. DONE. This seems like it has 4000 microprocessors to monitor each step in triplicate. I don't have my I-Pad with me to dig into some of the craziness just to say apply a parking brake or the special blow downs on the brakes for what I don't remember. I do remember the story of the engine with its markers stuck on no one could turn them off not with the proper switch nor diving into the computer with a laptop.

Like I said have yet to see these in person but haven't heard anything good about them. I will take the GE dual mode and all its issues with a roll of duck tape, bubble gum and bailing wire. I will be more likely to get over the road,

Alex M wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:14 am Of the total number of Siemens locomotives currently operating, exactly how many are experiencing serious operating problems? Of those that function normally, how are they able to keep running reliably and is there a common reason as to why those that failed do so?

All of them.

Even the ACS 64s, every one of them has issues. They are not isolated incidents. The difference with the ACS though is there is no crock pot Tier 4 diesel with all of its complications. Most of what goes wrong with ACS64s puts them in the shop at night or ties them up over the weekend. We usually have 15-25 ACS shopped a weekend for various failures, problems, CMs etc.

The software issues are usually the only variable, currently we have 3 active main versions of software for the ACS 64. Under that, there are probably 10 or 20 different sub revisions. Those 3 active versions are NOT compatible with each other for double heading.

Has anyone knowledge of what experience the German (DB), Austrian (OBB) and Czech (CD) systems have had with their extensive fleets of Siemens electric engines. Apparently, the ACS-64 is based upon several of those designs. There could be other systems as well that have Siemens in their fleets.

But what do I know; I'm just a paying passenger when I have gone over there.

I've wondered that , too.
Do the EU versions have the same issues? Or is there different software, due to various code export restrictions?
They are both supposed to be based on the stable platform of the Vectron, so Why are the version for this continent so buggy?

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:15 pm

Alex M wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:14 am Of the total number of Siemens locomotives currently operating, exactly how many are experiencing serious operating problems? Of those that function normally, how are they able to keep running reliably and is there a common reason as to why those that failed do so?

All of them.

Even the ACS 64s, every one of them has issues. They are not isolated incidents. The difference with the ACS though is there is no crock pot Tier 4 diesel with all of its complications. Most of what goes wrong with ACS64s puts them in the shop at night or ties them up over the weekend. We usually have 15-25 ACS shopped a weekend for various failures, problems, CMs etc.

The software issues are usually the only variable, currently we have 3 active main versions of software for the ACS 64. Under that, there are probably 10 or 20 different sub revisions. Those 3 active versions are NOT compatible with each other for double heading.

I spent a couple decades developing software (mainly for financial services), and in general, what you and others have said about this software is not even close to acceptable. Someone responsible needs a new line of work, such as dog walking. But I've seen the problem before - as I understand it, LIRR had problems with its 3 FL9AC's (since scrapped by MTA) and its DE's and DM's a few years later.

The idea of locos that have good computers to run most efficiently and monitor for problems is great - but in real life, results vary.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:06 am They seem to be an over engineered electrical computerized nightmare. Locomotives are pretty simple, diesel engine turns a generator to make electricity to supply the traction motors to turn wheels. DONE. This seems like it has 4000 microprocessors to monitor each step in triplicate. I don't have my I-Pad with me to dig into some of the craziness just to say apply a parking brake or the special blow downs on the brakes for what I don't remember.

And how much more complicated are the new Airo versions going to be with their multi-powering options, APV cars, battery power, etc. All untested systems, right?

I've no idea what company TFL bought it's new (pantograph) commuter trains from for Crossrail / Elizabeth Line, but before it opened, they did several months of increasingly heavy testing on multiple train sets. Amtrak, MTA don't seem to really understand that concept, though at least Amtrak did test out their A2 trains a fair amount - though we've no idea when they will go into service. And the more complex the equipment, the more testing it needs.

Testing was done extensively on the ACS 64 but what happens is they keep making "tweaks" which end up breaking more things, much like how apple or google release NEW FEATURES and then all the old features dont work right, the ones you rely on.

Siemens in EU is a different game. Its different people, and as ive mentioned before the diesel engines are totally different. The hardware is pretty much all the same but adapted for the US market which uses a lot of ancient history to work.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:29 pm

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:06 am They seem to be an over engineered electrical computerized nightmare. Locomotives are pretty simple, diesel engine turns a generator to make electricity to supply the traction motors to turn wheels. DONE. This seems like it has 4000 microprocessors to monitor each step in triplicate. I don't have my I-Pad with me to dig into some of the craziness just to say apply a parking brake or the special blow downs on the brakes for what I don't remember.

And how much more complicated are the new Airo versions going to be with their multi-powering options, APV cars, battery power, etc. All untested systems, right?

Oh boy, people will know what it's like hearing over the train crew radio "the Hippo blue screened, again"

Locomotives BSOD!

They dont have that problem.

As much as this will be hated it is time to ----------- Clean sheet this whole system. Start out with a manual switch to by pass all this high tech. IMO it is a matter of passenger safety. Otherwise sooner or later there is going to be deaths caused by personnel unable to restart a train.

As well the KISS system must be followed.

There is no manual switch. Literally everything is connected to a IO station, and put on a computer network. Every switch, button, etc is on the network via an IO station. It is run by 2 different fully redundant computer systems. The TCU (Traction control unit) and the CCU (Carbody control unit?) handle all the main processing.

This is nothing new, its an industrial standard. Everything is like this today. Even automobiles. And theres plenty of fine, functional examples out there.