Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Amtrak won't be able to run faster than NJT east of Dover, and at least parts of that line, maybe all of it, are probably at capacity now, Yet I have heard no talk of increasing capacity on the M&E, maybe because of its prohibitive cost. Sure, you could run trains fast on the 28 miles of the Cutoff, but the line in PA has never been a high speed route.Right now the track in PA seems like it's probably Class 2, with a 30 mph MAS. How much money/time would it take to improve that? Would line relocations be needed? Phoebe, on the Lackawanna's meticulously maintained track, averaged 37 MPH in PA east of Scranton. What would Amtrak have to do to better this? Amtrak's record of improving speeds isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

JoeG wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:08 pm Amtrak won't be able to run faster than NJT east of Dover, and at least parts of that line, maybe all of it, are probably at capacity now, Yet I have heard no talk of increasing capacity on the M&E, maybe because of its prohibitive cost. Sure, you could run trains fast on the 28 miles of the Cutoff, but the line in PA has never been a high speed route.Right now the track in PA seems like it's probably Class 2, with a 30 mph MAS. How much money/time would it take to improve that? Would line relocations be needed? Phoebe, on the Lackawanna's meticulously maintained track, averaged 37 MPH in PA east of Scranton. What would Amtrak have to do to better this? Amtrak's record of improving speeds isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

Wait, I assumed the cutoff was 55mph or higher.

The Cutoff ends in PA just across the Delaware River. Phoebe didn't stop at the Water Gap, but I added 15 minutes to the Blairstown time to approximate arrival there. I got this from looking at trains that did stop there. That seems close enough. So my time estimate is roughly from the west end of the Cutoff to Scranton. In Lackawanna days the Cutoff probably had a MAS of 80, but it was said that engineers could go much faster to make up time. After all, no PTC back then and the Lackawanna didn't have Automatic Train Stop.

Mr. Scratchy, I assure you, from having ridden the Cutoff's length sitting in Miss Phoebe's Obs, the speed was 79mph.

But really, why does everyone continue to waste the site owner's bandwidth with this Scranton talk when it simply will never happen? Simply because someone drew some lines in a "Coloring Book", the likes of which every other agency in town also prepared, to the incoming POTUS's birthplace, does mean such viable, or even feasible?

Yes a beautifully engineered ROW is there and in public hands, but there is still the matter of 28 miles of track to lay over it, then rebuilding 65 more miles of, at best, Class 2 to Class 4. And for what? A city in decline readily accessible by Interstate Highway (by contrast, Lynchburg VA - hardly in decline - has "new" service doing "reasonably well" is not on the Interstate system and from having driven it, US29 is dangerous).

So let's be thankful that the extension on the Cutoff into Sussex County appears ready to move forth. I think that this very possible "RTO3X" can make the area again "attractive" for well paid knowledge workers. Maybe the trend will continue with sufficient demand in Warren County so that the line is further extended to Blairstown, but that will likely be all. None of this is intercity service which Amtrak has a charter to provide. It is regional service for which Amtrak has no charter.

My earlier comment about running time was a guesstimate based on current NJT train volumes and the physical characteristics of the existing line. I don't see how an inbound rush hour Amtrak train is going to make faster speeds than NJT trains because of existing train volume. Off-peak Amtrak service would have better opportunities for reduced running times. Again, just my opinion with nothing factual to support my contention.

JoeG wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:08 pm Amtrak won't be able to run faster than NJT east of Dover, and at least parts of that line, maybe all of it, are probably at capacity now, Yet I have heard no talk of increasing capacity on the M&E, maybe because of its prohibitive cost. Sure, you could run trains fast on the 28 miles of the Cutoff, but the line in PA has never been a high-speed route. Right now the track in PA seems like it's probably Class 2, with a 30 mph MAS. How much money/time would it take to improve that? Would line relocations be needed? Phoebe, on the Lackawanna’s meticulously maintained track, averaged 37 MPH in PA east of Scranton. What would Amtrak have to do to better this? Amtrak’s record of improving speeds isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

The DL&W’s (and later E-L) track was “meticulously maintained” in the late 50s and throughout the 60s? (And JFTR, during that era Pocono Summit was a flag stop, so the PS was capable of breaking the 40-mph average speed barrier and was even timetabled for a 39-mph average speed on the downgrade eastbound runs with the straightaway through Henryville and Analomink.)

We need to define what “at capacity” means; right now, the maximum number of trains in peak directions on the mostly three-track line between Summit and Hoboken/NYP is maybe 5-6 trains per hour, which looks to me like more trains can be run and even at relatively rapid speeds (this rises to 8 TPH at Newark Broad, with the Montclair-Boonton trains added in east of Roseville Avenue); west of Summit, the maximum is 4 TPH on a two-track railroad.

lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:07 pm

I wrote:No need to exaggerate. Amtrak does far better than a 33-mph average speed on even its slowest operations. Now NJT might not breach 30 mph average speed on Dover “express” trains that make every stop between there and Summit, but what’s to hold Amtrak back, particularly west of Dover?

Oh please. The issue isn’t the number of stops…

• The line is full of curves between Newark and Dover
• There’s only two tracks in lots of places
• During rush hour, Summit already sees 10 trains per hour (including 2 that express through it). How are you going to find room for an eleventh?

As far as Amtrak’s average speed, the Capitol Corridor takes nearly two hours to cover 75 miles between San Jose and Martinez, so you might want to temper your expectations there. No need to dump on your fellow railroaders.

A few things here:

• Summit has 10 TPH in peak directions? Does not appear to be so in the timetable. The two-track High Line still hosts more than double that during peak hours (presuming both directions). Curves are not in and of itself an impediment to running fast even with non-tilting trains.
• The Capitol Corridor is not anywhere near a wholly-Amtrak-owned operation. CalTrans, the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority and even BART cooperate with respect to management, provision of rolling stock and funding, whereas Amtrak’s role is train operation and rolling stock maintenance. The route is still partly owned by Union Pacific, in addition. Plus, a 39-mph average speed is not that bad with ten intermediate stations plus the slowdown via the Jack London Square street running in Oakland and two stops in Santa Clara (revisiting the “number of stops” point that you claim to be nonexistent; should the number of stops south of Oakland be reduced, the average speed goes up even with the current mix with Caltrain runs).

My times were taken from a 1952 timetable that is available online. At the time the Lackawanna was still profitable and well maintained. Later on, maybe not so much. A catastrophic hurricane in 1955 destroyed many miles of the railroad in PA, costing money to repair it couldn't afford. But 1952, with its Korean War traffic and new passenger equipment, the Lackawanna was still in the era of postwar optimism

NJ Transit awards contract for construction of Lackawanna Cut-off from Port Morris to Andover.

https://www.nj.com/traffic/2022/04/nj-t ... on-pa.html

Mr. Volpini, I think your thought is "a bit" optimistic.

The linked report only states that only the tunnel and 8000ft of track is included within the award.

However, I'd like to think that NJT has secured the funding to lay the remainder of the track.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:46 pm Mr. Volpini, I think your thought is "a bit" optimistic.

The linked report only states that only the tunnel and 8000ft of track is included within the award.

However, I'd like to think that NJT has secured the funding to lay the remainder of the track.

Mr. Norman,
I've benn a NJ resident most of my life. I am aware you have a decade of experience on me. But I may have a slightly more the about transit needs in this area having commuted and traveled for work throughout the state for many years on both rail and road. My only travel experience on the Lackawanna was in the 50s as a youngster.
All that stated and with the understanding that Amtrak has interest in the line, I do not see the financial viability of this line.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:46 pm Mr. Volpini, I think your thought is "a bit" optimistic.

The linked report only states that only the tunnel and 8000ft of track is included within the award.

However, I'd like to think that NJT has secured the funding to lay the remainder of the track.

Funny to see them go back and forth in this. At one point there were two separate contracts, then they folded everything into the tunnel contract, now I guess they split it again. Sounds like the tunnel is 36 out of 62 million, so over half of the remaining cost.

Fingers crossed.

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:54 pm A few things here:

• Summit has 10 TPH in peak directions? Does not appear to be so in the timetable. The two-track High Line still hosts more than double that during peak hours (presuming both directions). Curves are not in and of itself an impediment to running fast even with non-tilting trains.

As you can imagine, not every train that goes through Summit stops there. So perhaps look a bit closer at the timetable if you aren’t seeing 10 trains during rush hour. And no, I’m not talking about both directions. I’m talking about 10 trains per hour heading toward New York/Hoboken.

• The Capitol Corridor is not anywhere near a wholly-Amtrak-owned operation. CalTrans, the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority and even BART cooperate with respect to management, provision of rolling stock and funding, whereas Amtrak’s role is train operation and rolling stock maintenance. The route is still partly owned by Union Pacific, in addition. Plus, a 39-mph average speed is not that bad with ten intermediate stations plus the slowdown via the Jack London Square street running in Oakland and two stops in Santa Clara (revisiting the “number of stops” point that you claim to be nonexistent; should the number of stops south of Oakland be reduced, the average speed goes up even with the current mix with Caltrain runs).

Oh please. BART has zero to do with day to day operations of the Capitol Corridor or its schedules. And 75 divided by 2 does not equal 39. I only picked this line because I’m familiar with it. I’m sure someone else could easily find other lines where the average speeds drop below 33. Hell, what’s Amtrak’s average speed between Newark and New Rochelle even if you take out the dwell time in NYP?

The work past the tunnel is what, 5 miles of single track railroad on an existing railroad grade? And a presumably small station. for 26 million? Seems outrageous. What am I missing?

JoeG wrote:The work past the tunnel is what, 5 miles of single track railroad on an existing railroad grade? And a presumably small station. for 26 million? Seems outrageous. What am I missing?

Swamps, endangered bats, washouts, and tunnels. And there's no getting to PA without shelling out this amount, despite limited impact from this MVP. And I would save the term "outrageous" for what they'll end up paying rehabbing the viaducts a few miles further down the line.