SEPTA NPT card will be "SEPTA Key"?

R36 Combine Coach wrote: As of April 30, 2018 SEPTA has ended token sales, leaving just TTC still using tokens as a form of fare collection.

R36: SEPTA has --NOT-- stopped selling tokens. They are still available from outside vendors or
in bulk for service organizations that still use them. A group of previously posted RRD stations
will continue to sell tokens until further notice. (See my post fourth from top of Page 10)

There is no doubt that some media reported this change incorrectly as literally being the end of
token sales instead of reading through exactly what this sales change was to be...

SEPTA ended token sales at these five outlets as of April 30th:

-1234 Market Street Lobby
-15th Street Concourse (both in Center City)
-Frankford Terminal
-69th Street Terminal
-Olney Transportation Center

A recent Philly.com report mentioned that token sales has dropped to around one million in the
past month - down from around 3.5 million/month from as recently as 2016.

There is a core group of riders that will continue to use tokens as long as they are accepted for
fare - saving 50 cents per ride over the cash fare/Key Quick Trip price of $2.50.

With a significant amount of tokens remaining in circulation any transition needs to be gradual.
Tokens do still have the savings advantage and use flexibility in their favor...MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:
There is a core group of riders that will continue to use tokens as long as they are accepted for
fare - saving 50 cents per ride over the cash fare/Key Quick Trip price of $2.50.

With a significant amount of tokens remaining in circulation any transition needs to be gradual.
Tokens do still have the savings advantage and use flexibility in their favor...MACTRAXX

Sorry I'm going to nit pick this because I've been seeing this argument a lot recently. Key fares are the same as a token, $2. The Quick Trip was not intended to replace tokens but to replace cash fares so the both staff can be shifted out to help customers.

silverliner266 wrote:

MACTRAXX wrote:
There is a core group of riders that will continue to use tokens as long as they are accepted for fare - saving 50 cents per ride over the cash fare/Key Quick Trip price of $2.50.

With a significant amount of tokens remaining in circulation any transition needs to be gradual. Tokens do still have the savings advantage and use flexibility in their favor... MACTRAXX

Sorry I'm going to nit pick this because I've been seeing this argument a lot recently. Key fares are the same as a token, $2. The Quick Trip was not intended to replace tokens but to replace cash fares so the both staff can be shifted out to help customers.

To un-nitpick a bit, you're both correct in part. Correct, Key fares maintain the same price advantage as tokens, and QT's were intended for single-trip riders. MT's "however" is that the Key doesn't offer the same level of flexibility that tokens did, especially for people who aren't core commuters. Specifically, anyone - commuter, visitor, occasional rider, etc. - could buy tokens in pretty much any quantity greater than 2. That meant you could buy exactly enough to take any number of round trips needed, with transfers being paid separately if needed. The Key's price and refill amounts will soon be lowered to $5 but that still doesn't match an exact number of round trips, with or without transfers. In addition the $4.95 initial fee is credited only if you register your card - no problem for regular users but an impediment to visitors. Finally, tokens were fungible. They could be shared by groups riding together like families or students but the Key requires a separate purchase for each person. To be fair to SEPTA they do have plans to "eventually" add multi-tap functionality but no one knows what "eventually" means.

I freely admit I'm looking at the Key project from my perspective as a senior IT guy: one of the core principles of designing a major system upgrade or a replacement is that either (a) central functionality should be maintained if possible, or (b) if functionality has to be changed the new version should be equivalent or better. The Key does neither.

The Delaware County Daily Times ran a front-page story on the token situation the other day, featuring a nice shot of Silverliner IV's at North Wales. Well, at least they got the logo right ...

I don't know what this means, but my local Shop Rite supermarket of Knorr St. will not sell S.E.P.T.A. tokens and passes after May 31. They won't sell June passes at all, and will stop selling tokens earlier if they run out of inventory. This was their May 1 story.

According to http://www.septa.org/fares/discount/sen ... -info.html

Licenses ID's issued by PennDOT after July 2017 cannot be tapped at the Validator or swiped at the reader - not valid for Senior travel.

To Obtain a Pennsylvania Senior Citizen Transit Identification Card
Applicants are required to show at least one form of accepted identification along with a completed application.
Accepted Forms Of Identification
Armed Forces Discharge/Separation Papers
Baptismal Certificate
Birth Certificate
Resident Alien Card
Yellow PACE Card (Pharmaceutical Assistance Contract for the Elderly)
Passport/Naturalization Papers
Pennsylvania ID Card (Non-Driver)
Photo Drivers License
Statement of Age Verification from the U.S. Social Security Administration

Other sources guess that Pennsylvania has changed the information that they put on the magnetic strips, either moving or eliminating the date of birth. If some other locality still puts the date of birth on a magnetic strip in a location where S.E.P.T.A.'s reader can find it, it may be accepted.

ExCon90 wrote:The Delaware County Daily Times ran a front-page story on the token situation the other day, featuring a nice shot of Silverliner IV's at North Wales. Well, at least they got the logo right ...

EC90 and Everyone: This is the 4/29 DCDT article by Kathleen E. Carey:
http://www.delcotimes.com/general-news/ ... t-card-age" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am surprised that they used a RRD picture taken at North Wales instead of one along either the
Media or Wilmington Lines or more appropriately the 101 or 102 trolley routes where tokens are
actually accepted for fare instead of Regional Rail which (in case anyone is unaware) they are not.

I noticed the mention of NYC Transit's Metrocard in the article and remember how the MTA used
incentives to get riders to use the system beginning in 1994 with the first fare discount being a
$1 weekend fare - the regular fare was $1.25 - and percentage bonuses for riders placing what
was usually a minimum of $10 on cards that would include at least one free ride...

Free transfers beginning in 1997 and unlimited ride cards one year later were the major changes
that were brought about by the Metrocard system and even with these incentives it took 9 years
(2003) to gradually eliminate the use of tokens which offered nothing extra to continue their use.

In comparison SEPTA tokens still offer a 50 cent discount over the cash fare and have the factor
of flexibility in their use still available at least for the time being.

What will be interesting is to see what SEPTA does to eliminate the use of transfers for cash or
token payment riders - in the past the City of Philadelphia backed up by advocates for various
groups have successfully sued SEPTA when the elimination of transfers has been proposed.
Any move that SEPTA makes to eliminate transfers may encounter strong opposition.

MACTRAXX

JimBoylan wrote:I don't know what this means, but my local Shop Rite supermarket of Knorr St. will not sell S.E.P.T.A. tokens and passes after May 31. They won't sell June passes at all, and will stop selling tokens earlier if they run out of inventory. This was their May 1 story.

JB: Intereresting observation...
What SEPTA may be doing is cutting off supplying outside vendors with tokens (and any legacy
passes) as a further part of this gradual drawdown...Is there any proposal to sell the Key card
through outside vendors or will any outside availability be a thing of the past? MACTRAXX

Seems like SEPTA is about to roll out the system on the RR too because I see those septa key validators at the stations across the Lansdale/Doylestown line and at the center city stations
Also saw a conductor collecting a SEPTA key fare on the Airport line, he was using something that looks like a phone? or a phone like device to scan the chip on the card

MACTRAXX wrote:Is there any proposal to sell the Key card through outside vendors or will any outside availability be a thing of the past? MACTRAXX

I raised that issue at one of the hearings last year. They said plans are to sell Key cards at retail outlets similar how gift cards etc. are sold. Of course since then there's been no further information, just like so many other promises surrounding the Key.

[cynicism] I'm fully prepared to believe availability will be even more limited than it was for tokens because more people will be forced to pay the higher cash fare equivalent. [/cynicism]

Earlier statements from S.E.P.T.A. claimed that tokens and magnetic strip passes would be available to outside sales locations until a pilot program to allow enable those places to sell Key Cards was successfully tested. According to http://www.septa.org/key/

SEPTA Key Cards are now available for customers at a number of External Retail locations

Here is my comment on S.E.P.T.A.'s Key Card reply form:

This is nothing but an elaborate fare increase, although some of it is necessary to cover the increased costs of the new system. The cost of 2 rides using tokens is $4. The cost of 2 rides using a Key Card is $9.95, $4.95 for the Card plus $5 minimum that has to be loaded on it.

JimBoylan wrote:Here is my comment on SEPTA's Key Card reply form:

This is nothing but an elaborate fare increase, although some of it is necessary to cover the increased costs of the new system. The cost of 2 rides using tokens is $4. The cost of 2 rides using a Key Card is $9.95, $4.95 for the Card plus $5 minimum that has to be loaded on it.

In all fairness the $4.95 will be credited to your Key balance IF you register the card, but not everyone is going to do that. If you're a commuter there's no reason to skip registration but it's completely impractical for visitors and tourists and is an extra hoop for infrequent riders. Combine that with other sneaky "gotchas" like the 50¢ upcharge on third-party payments, draconian restrictions on QT's and the planned elimination of transfers for riders without a Key, this is going to be a HUGE fare gouge for a lot of riders - yet hardly anyone seems to realize what's going to happen.

JimBoylan wrote:Here is my comment on S.E.P.T.A.'s Key Card reply form:

This is nothing but an elaborate fare increase, although some of it is necessary to cover the increased costs of the new system. The cost of 2 rides using tokens is $4. The cost of 2 rides using a Key Card is $9.95, $4.95 for the Card plus $5 minimum that has to be loaded on it.

I'll note that the fair comparison is between the cheapest option under the old system ($4) vs the cheapest option under the new system ($5). This looks like a modest fare upgrade, just 50 cents. It's not a fair comparison if you intentionally suppose a two-ride visitor can't figure out to buy quick trips instead.

andrewjw wrote:I'll note that the fair comparison is between the cheapest option under the old system ($4) vs the cheapest option under the new system ($5). This looks like a modest fare upgrade, just 50 cents.

That's assuming the rider only ever makes one round trip and doesn't transfer. In that case they might as well pay the higher cash fare. OTOH if they make more trips without transfers the dollar carries over for later rides; if they transfer, they can use the extra dollar on one leg - but then they get snagged by the "gotcha" of being forced to put another $5 on the card even though they only need a single buck for the return leg. That mismatch between service costs and payment options is where it's clear that SEPTA never thought things through from the riders' perspective. It's kinda like Burger King selling you a quarter-pounder but insisting you also buy half of a second bun for your next purchase.

It's not a fair comparison if you intentionally suppose a two-ride visitor can't figure out to buy quick trips instead.

QTs are only available on a few lines, are priced at the higher cash fare, and most importantly don't allow transfers.

SEPTA seems to be h***-bent on creating a digital equivalent of its old spider-web fare system where the same ride could have up to 5 different prices depending on how you paid.