Park Avenue/Harlem River Vertical Lift Bridge in N

Does anyone know when the present day Harlem River lift bridge, which was built in the mid 1950's, was painted blue for the first time? An early photo I've seen shows the bridge and Park Avenue Viaduct both painted silver. I'd also be interested in knowing the diameter of the 128 lift cables and what the sheaves mounted halfway up on the inside of vertical tower supports are used for and what the machinery between the cables on the walkway near the top of the tower is . Is there any detailed diagram of any of the components of this bridge available as I am currently constructing a freelanced version in N scale.

I believe Detail questions about infrastructure can get you unwanted attention these days .
Just my $0.02

DutchRailnut, you seem to have a very cynical but understandable concern. Perhaps you are correct that my post will receive undo attention. I would presume that most modelers who are also railfans and who are trying for fidelity to the prototype might have a difficult time of it if there was no source of material to sharpen their skills. I know that there are perhaps hundreds of photos of this bridge on the internet and there is nothing I know of that, if so moved, would prevent someone from taking a zoom closeup photo of a particular part of the bridge from a public location. Can you provide any information at least about when the bridge was repainted from silver to blue ? It seems to me that such a question could be asked and answered withouh drawing unwanted attention.

The History and Science channel's would both go out of business if they could not do shows about infrastructure. I do not think I have the details you are looking for, but I will take a quick look. If you research engineering periodicals during the time that the bridge was constructed you will no doubt find what you are looking for. Since you live in Montrose hop on MN to GCT and visit the NY City Library and do the research. Jack

Thank you Jack. I don't know why it never occurred to me to do any research in NY City!

Here's another source:

http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/park-avenue/

-otto-

It appears that painting both rail and vehicular bridges (baby) blue seems to have gained some acceptance in the seventies. The theory was that the light blue could reduce or minimize the visual massiveness of older bridges. Also some studies (scientific or not) stated that blue lessened or delayed acts of suicide. Cool colors having a calming effect on distraught individuals. There may be some economic reasons as well. I know manufacture’s reps in the painting and coating industry and will inquire.

Hey, they painted the Hell Gate Bridge fuchsia. Go figure that one!

As the person who started this post, might I say that it wasn't until Charlie mentioned it in his recent post that I realized that I had asked my questions on the anniversary of 9/11. For that I apologize.

In any event, I consider his reply to be just as cynical as DutchRailnut's original response. Asking such questions about a prototype structure is, in my opinion, a legitimate quest for knowledge to help educate oneself. Asking about such details on a railfan and modeler's forum should not even be considered taboo simply because such knowledge might be put to malevolent use by some nut. Also, to some extent, self-censorship isn't the best idea either since it would only play into the hands of those who would seek to curtail our freedoms and have us do for them what they cannot do themselves.

In spite of all the the negativity, I have made some real progress in the construction of my N scale model. While I have made a number of compromises in the design, especially the reduction from 4 tracks to 2 and a change in the truss structure, I think my model is coming along well. I have decided to use 22 gauge florist wire for the cables and some 60" Grandt Line cable sheaves to model some of the components I had questions about. What I didn't fully realize when I started this project, was that the small size of N scale, renders somewhat moot the need for specific information about the structure's details.

I've attached a photo of my model's progress so far. I have some more details to add, such as the bridge tender's building, the cables and walkways and I still have to paint everything, but the end is in sight. I welcome your comments.

enwhycentral,

Interesting selection of letters for your name. I have not been observing the forum for some time, otherwise I might have been able to at least provide some information in a timely manner. Although from the progress that you have made it appears that you have passed the point of concern. I have copies of the blueprints (in the attic, somewhere) for the bridge, at least pages 1 - 3 of the general layout, there were 45 pages total. These three pages give overall dimensions and elevations of the piers and towers. I will locate them and attempt to answer your questions if you are still interested?

Bob

Hey NY Central,

Nice to meet another N.Y. Central railfan. Am I interested? As Sarah Palin would say: "You betcha"! Have you posted on any other forums and are you a modeler as well? I grew up in The Bronx, lived in Manhattan and commuted over this bridge twice a day from Westchester for over 20 years. I always intended for a model of it to be the focal point of my N scale layout. Eventually, if I live long enough, I'll model a compressed version of the 125th St. station and the Park Avenue viaduct. Stay in touch!

[email protected]

enwhycentral wrote:As the person who started this post, might I say that it wasn't until Charlie mentioned it in his recent post that I realized that I had asked my questions on the anniversary of 9/11. For that I apologize. In any event, I consider his reply to be just as cynical as DutchRailnut's original response.

What do you expect, it's the way we are trained to think now. Nine years of paranoia! Don't take everything so personally.

Thanks for sharing progress on your model, would like to see more pictures if you have them available.

Moving this thread over to Scale Model Railroading so more people can appreciate your work!

-=otto-

The bridge was built in the early 1950's, the bridge it replaced was immediately to the south of where the present bridge stands. I remember when the bridge was silver and silver with rust splotches, at one point in the early 60's, I think it was Jade Green or a drab shade of it.

There was a plan about fifteen years ago to remove the weights, somebody thought the bridge didn't need to be opened anymore for traffic, but that changed, as all who see the bridge today can still observe the weights. One morning on a weekend just last year while inbound on the southern side of the bridge, I saw the northern side of the bridge raised. That was the first time in my life I have ever seen that bridge open, and I have ridden trains over that span since 1960.

In so far as technical detail, as one craftsman from Xerox once told me; "Just EYEBALL it. If it looks right, that's fine. If it's for yourself, who cares. If you've been commissioned by the owner or the Smithsonian to replicate it, go get the blueprints."

Keep up the good work and keep asking questions!

D/

enwhycentral,


I do post on other forums, infrequently though, much like this one. If I have something to offer I will post, I frequent Kitforums the most often. I am a modeler for many years, with NYC as a focus, but I have expanded my interests to New England and south to Mid-Atlantic.

I grew up in North White Plains, my grandfathers, my father and two uncles worked on the Harlem division. My father was an electrician and took a job on the bridge after its completion that is how he came to get the drawings, he was also a modeler. The drawings have been sitting in a tube for the past 40 some years and they are a bit flimsy, but I believe I have read them correctly.

So to your questions, I do not remember the bridge in any color but silver, but I was gone from New York by 1966. The machinery or fixtures at either end of the tower platform I cannot answer at this point, I think I have an idea, but I need to look into it. I can comment on some of the other details you asked about. The mid tower sheaves were deemed "Auxiliary Counterweight Sheaves" with a sheave diameter about 6'. From the front elevation it shows cables (smaller than the main cables) attached to the top center of the span looping over the sheaves to smaller counterweights. This smaller counterweight is just out of sight in the picture you posted. From the sheave center point to the counter weight clevis the dimension is 5' 6", so you just missed it in the photograph. The weight measures 14' 5"" long and roughly measures out to 3' by 3' square and the.

The main cables are 2 3/8ths inch diameter; there are 16 of them on each end, ganged in fours and attached to flange plates.

General dimensions; overall tower height is just over 200', the main span is 340' in length and divided into 10 panels. The height difference of the span chord from the span ends to the center is about 18'. The control house you spoke of is three stories in height with various window locations on all three levels. Considering you are modeling one half of the bridge you might want to position the elevator shaft to the tower through the control house off to one side.

If you have more questions, let me know.

Bob

Hey Bob (NYCentral) and anyone else who might be interested,
Thanks so much for all the info and data. It will go a long way towards helping me complete my model.

Cables that are 2 3/8" in diameter in the proto-world, are .0148" in N scale. That is roughly equivalent to 27 gauge wire, but I am using 22 gauge because the smaller wires do not appear as distinct as the larger ones from normal viewing distances in N scale. Rivets are all but invisible in N scale as well. I read somewhere that there are 32 cables on each tower. Are you sure that there are only 4 cables in each of the 4 "bands" or does the figure of 32 include both the lifting cables and the counterweight cables?

For the mid-tower sheaves, I am using Grandt Line 60" diameter cable sheaves, and that is a little undersized but close enough for me. With all of the liberties I have taken with the truss design itself, these are but minor detail differences. I plan on painting my bridge silver, actually flat aluminum since I am modeling the NY Central era and that was it's color for most of that time. Of course, a liberal amount of rust and grime will also be applied. Realism is important, you know!

Your suggestion about positioning the elevator shaft to the tower through the control house off to one side is an interesting one. An example of "thinking outside the box (truss)"! I might put the control house in the tower and an elevator shaft and/or stairways on the outside.

My towers are 16 3/4 " above MHW (mean high water) and my center span is 21 1/4" in length. That works out to about 223' and 283' respectively in proto-world, so my model is a little too tall and somewhat shorter than the prototype, but my bridge's dimensions were in part determined by the materials I used (3 Kato Unitrack double track bridge decks and track, 13 cut apart Model Power bridges and lots and lots of basswood).

I have lived in The Bronx, Manhattan and Westchester and commuted for 20 years over the real bridge. It just might take that long for me to finish my NY Central in N scale!

There are 16 cables per tower, but if you pair the two towers as one then 32 would be the number, hence 64 cables for the entire structure. The towers are independent structures only covered with sheet metal to enclose the top of the elevator shaft and the machinery houses.