NY Penn Station - Historic and architectural questions

Don't know a whole lot about NYP but I did find an image that might be a little easier to read (was linked from an earlier topic regarding Penn)
http://forums.railfan.net/image.cgi?/Pa ... nn_sta.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think that may be/have been a DC substation for the 3rd rail.

The only surviving part of the original station readily accessible is the services building, which is built like a fortress, and at one point i believe housed a generating station that fed power for lights etc and other things (shore power/steam for waiting trains?) to the station.

Here is a thread with some photos of the original station, but be warned, they may cause excessive foaming...

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 6&t=153355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote="newjerseynewbie"]Hello all!

With respect to the NJ Transit concourse, when was it built? Looking at plans of the old station, there doesn't seem to be access to tracks 1 through 11ish on the east side of the station. I guess New Jersey commuter trains were all handled through the western concourses?

---

The NJ Transit "7th Avenue Concourse" opened in 2002. It was carved out of space that, I believe, was partly retail and Amtrak space. New staircases, escalators, and elevators were installed down to tracks 1-12. This level sits at a depth roughly halfway between the Upper (Amtrak) Level and Lower (LIRR) Level. In 2009, a new entrance from the northwest corner of 31st St and 7th Ave was opened. Prior to this concourse existing, NJ Transit trains were exclusively accessed through the main (Upper Level) Amtrak level on the 8th Avenue side, as well as the Exit Concourse below. In daily use, NJ Transit customers tend to use all three spaces (Amtrak concourse, Exit Concourse, and 7th Ave Concourse).

JamesRR wrote:

newjerseynewbie wrote:Hello all!

With respect to the NJ Transit concourse, when was it built? Looking at plans of the old station, there doesn't seem to be access to tracks 1 through 11ish on the east side of the station. I guess New Jersey commuter trains were all handled through the western concourses?

---

The NJ Transit "7th Avenue Concourse" opened in 2002. It was carved out of space that, I believe, was partly retail and Amtrak space. New staircases, escalators, and elevators were installed down to tracks 1-12. This level sits at a depth roughly halfway between the Upper (Amtrak) Level and Lower (LIRR) Level. In 2009, a new entrance from the northwest corner of 31st St and 7th Ave was opened. Prior to this concourse existing, NJ Transit trains were exclusively accessed through the main (Upper Level) Amtrak level on the 8th Avenue side, as well as the Exit Concourse below. In daily use, NJ Transit customers tend to use all three spaces (Amtrak concourse, Exit Concourse, and 7th Ave Concourse).

Wow, I completely forgot about the 31st and 7th entrance. I remember when that opened I'd use that all the time after disembarking from my Amtrak train.

newjerseynewbie wrote:

JamesRR wrote:Prior to this concourse existing, NJ Transit trains were exclusively accessed through the main (Upper Level) Amtrak level on the 8th Avenue side, as well as the Exit Concourse below.

I guess that's why the "big board" shows NJT departures in addition to Amtrak departures - but not, say, LIRR. A vestige of NJT boarding from the 8th Ave concourses?

Another historical question for the NYP buffs here: the original arcade from 7th Avenue to the stairs down to the Main Waiting Room would have run at street level. The current "arcade" runs a floor below, at the same level as the Main Waiting Room (ie: above LIRR level, but below street level). What existed where the current passage from 7th Avenue to the Main Waiting Room/Rotunda runs - ie: the area east of the ticket counters in Old Penn?

Amtrak and NJT have a joint departure board setup. Throughout the station, all Amtrak departure boards also show NJT. Big board included. NJT has its own displays in the EXIT concourse (which sit right above the Amtrak/NJT displays), and also its own displays in the 7 Ave Concourse. It actually is a bit confusing, and surprising that the boards aren't more separated and labeled. LIRR has its own system which only shows LIRR departures (although, when an NJT train departs on a LIRR track, 13-up, the departure info will be shown on LIRR trackside indicators).

As for the current arcade, I believe that is where Baggage and Mail operations were handled.

JamesRR wrote:

newjerseynewbie wrote:

JamesRR wrote:Prior to this concourse existing, NJ Transit trains were exclusively accessed through the main (Upper Level) Amtrak level on the 8th Avenue side, as well as the Exit Concourse below.

I guess that's why the "big board" shows NJT departures in addition to Amtrak departures - but not, say, LIRR. A vestige of NJT boarding from the 8th Ave concourses?

Another historical question for the NYP buffs here: the original arcade from 7th Avenue to the stairs down to the Main Waiting Room would have run at street level. The current "arcade" runs a floor below, at the same level as the Main Waiting Room (ie: above LIRR level, but below street level). What existed where the current passage from 7th Avenue to the Main Waiting Room/Rotunda runs - ie: the area east of the ticket counters in Old Penn?

Amtrak and NJT have a joint departure board setup. Throughout the station, all Amtrak departure boards also show NJT. Big board included. NJT has its own displays in the EXIT concourse (which sit right above the Amtrak/NJT displays), and also its own displays in the 7 Ave Concourse. It actually is a bit confusing, and surprising that the boards aren't more separated and labeled. LIRR has its own system which only shows LIRR departures (although, when an NJT train departs on a LIRR track, 13-up, the departure info will be shown on LIRR trackside indicators).

As for the current arcade, I believe that is where Baggage and Mail operations were handled.

It's a royal pain how some monitors only show NJT and some show both. I would use the NJT 7th Ave. concourse religiously if it showed Amtrak departures. It does not.

JamesRR wrote:(although, when an NJT train departs on a LIRR track, 13-up, the departure info will be shown on LIRR trackside indicators).

Really? That's news to me. Just the signs on the platforms, or also the displays at the top of the platform staircases in the LIRR concourses?

How much detail about NJT trains can the LIRR signs show?

hi55us wrote: It's a royal pain how some monitors only show NJT and some show both. I would use the NJT 7th Ave. concourse religiously if it showed Amtrak departures. It does not.

If you somehow knew the track, is it easy to board an Amtrak train from the NJT concourse? Like, can you always get to every platform, without any locked doors or escalators running the wrong way? (Of course, the NJT 7th Ave concourse only goes to tracks 1-10, while Amtrak trains could be on tracks 11-17 as well. Supposedly NJT occasionally boards from those higher tracks, and a trainload of people has to stampede to the other concourse.)

I don't suppose there's a way to get track postings on a smart phone? Something like the former webcam pointed at the departure board in 30th Street Station in the late 90s, which was useful before Amtrak had any train status on its website?

boblothrope wrote:

JamesRR wrote:(although, when an NJT train departs on a LIRR track, 13-up, the departure info will be shown on LIRR trackside indicators).

Really? That's news to me. Just the signs on the platforms, or also the displays at the top of the platform staircases in the LIRR concourses?

How much detail about NJT trains can the LIRR signs show?

hi55us wrote: It's a royal pain how some monitors only show NJT and some show both. I would use the NJT 7th Ave. concourse religiously if it showed Amtrak departures. It does not.

If you somehow knew the track, is it easy to board an Amtrak train from the NJT concourse? Like, can you always get to every platform, without any locked doors or escalators running the wrong way? (Of course, the NJT 7th Ave concourse only goes to tracks 1-10, while Amtrak trains could be on tracks 11-17 as well. Supposedly NJT occasionally boards from those higher tracks, and a trainload of people has to stampede to the other concourse.)

I don't suppose there's a way to get track postings on a smart phone? Something like the former webcam pointed at the departure board in 30th Street Station in the late 90s, which was useful before Amtrak had any train status on its website?

There was something like this, but the backend configuration was changed so it no longer works. However, if you look over in the NJT forum you will see that NJT is working on a real-time tracking system that, hopefully, will result in an officially supported departure function with info on tracks and delays at all stations not just NYP. This will be especially helpful at many other stations if a train has to unexpectedly come in on the "wrong" track to platform for whatever reason.

Link to thread: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 9&t=153389" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

boblothrope wrote:
I don't suppose there's a way to get track postings on a smart phone? Something like the former webcam pointed at the departure board in 30th Street Station in the late 90s, which was useful before Amtrak had any train status on its website?

Do what I used to do when I worked in the city. I worked there for 8 years and for the most part took the same train every night. I befriended one of the car cleaners. Once he got to know me, he'd quietly give me a heads up as to the track assignment each night. I wouldn't go down onto the platform, in case of any last-minute changes, but I would hang out at the top of the stairs and was the first to board pretty much every night.

There already is something, its called Departurevision. You can view the website from any web browser including your smartphone. It tells you the tracks the trains will be on at exactly the same time they show on the departure boards in Penn station, and for any other station on the entire NJT system.

Track numbers are only posted 10 minutes prior for NJT trains because ANYTHING can change at any moment in that station. Trains often come in and immediately turn for another outbound train. If said expected train arrives at the station and suddenly has a problem then another train must depart in its place so there will never be any kind of secret back door way to find out where your train is before anyone else will.

The only people who know before you do are the train crews, and even the system they use to find out can get updated and changed at any point.

The NJT concourse really isn't a good place to board Amtrak trains. Most of the time they stop towards more towards the center or even western end of the station. So if you board from the NJT area you'll wind up walking way down the platform.

On the other hand the best way to avoid the Amtrak crowds is to actually watch the arrival monitors in the main boarding area. If you are taking a train that's arriving from say Boston and heading to DC, you can just see what track it's arriving on and go down through the exit concourse and wait on the platform.

ApproachMedium wrote:There already is something, its called Departurevision. You can view the website from any web browser including your smartphone. It tells you the tracks the trains will be on at exactly the same time they show on the departure boards in Penn station, and for any other station on the entire NJT system.

Thanks! Here's the page for New York Penn Station: http://dv.njtransit.com/mobile/tid-mobile.aspx?sid=NY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I'll point out that it includes Amtrak trains.

In some cases, it presents things better than Amtrak's site. For example, http://dv.njtransit.com/mobile/train_st ... &train=A97" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; explicitly says the Silver Meteor is delayed, but Amtrak's site just says "The scheduled departure time is 3:15 pm" which is obviously not going to happen since it's already 3:30.

Do not rely on the DV page for Amtrak trains! It only seems to include trains heading WEST and will often provide incorrect info for station stops etc. The track numbers are correct usually, if the train is displayed. If you dont see the train you are looking for on there then the best way to go is the departure boards in the station.

ApproachMedium wrote:Do not rely on the DV page for Amtrak trains! It only seems to include trains heading WEST and will often provide incorrect info for station stops etc. The track numbers are correct usually, if the train is displayed. If you dont see the train you are looking for on there then the best way to go is the departure boards in the station.

Hmm, you're right.

http://dv.njtransit.com/mobile/train_st ... train=A193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; currently says Philly to DC in 49 minutes. Finally some high-speed rail in this country!

And it has #177 going to Norfolk? Really?