Northern NJT / MNRR Long Term plans and Proposals 2050 plans

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215 ... 1,2.469177

Most of the map is taken from the official MNRR / NJT plans , there is some input from the Counties and my Urban planner friends when it comes to the stations. Like you'll notice with the Bergen - Passaic LRT , Bergen County wants alot more stations to support redevelopment in Saddle Brook , Rochelle Park , Maywood and Bogota.

- The New Haven line has all the Major stations and future stations marked which includes , East Stamford , Black Rock Turnpike and West Haven. I Feel that CDOT could have pushed more for a streetcar system in both Stamford and Bridgeport that would reduce the Demand for New stations. I don't have a problem with adding West Haven and Orange stations that's acceptable.

- New Haven line Penn station Extension , has all the MNRR planned stations and then my stations like Sunnyside and Pelham Manor. The Reasoning behind Pelham Manor is ,there are alot of people who commute to the Penn station area from that part of Westchester County , why not give them a one seat ride? If your wondering theres an estimated 30,000 who commute by bus or car from the Bronx into Westchester or CT along the New Haven line corridor so this extension would greatly benefit them with a faster commute. My Reason behind Sunnyside is simple , there is enough demand from people commuting by bus or car from Long Island to Westchester / CT or vs versa why not although an Interchange between the Railroads. It would boost Ridership on both the MNRR and LIRR and take pressure off the over capacity , always congested highways.

- Hudson line Penn station Extension , has all the MNRR planned stations , I think it couldn't hurt to add a Dyckman street Station.

- Danbury line / Improvements , it has all the MNRR planned stations and then my Urban planner friend suggested a station in Downtown Norwalk which undergoing a Urban Renewal Boom. 40% of South Norwalk users are from the Downtown Norwalk area and that will grow , so to reduce the congestion in the future a station in DT Norwalk is recommended. Either in the Tunnel or next to it ,if the line is re-electrified i think the Tunnel would be the best option. If you wondering about Georgetown it is one of the many stalled developments in this region , although it seems things are starting to pick up again at least in NYC / Urban Jersey , which means next year we might see some movement at Georgetown.

- Beacon / Maybrook line , I think the Beacon has a chance to be restored sometime down the road giving the growth along the line ,however the Maybrook line is looking less and less likely and if the Amtrak HSR line is ever built i think we can consider it permenatly killed.

- I-287 Railway Corridor , I do see this being built in my lifetime in 2 phases. All the proposed stations are there , the only problem I have with the I-287 Rail / BRT is the BRT routing but I discussed that on another site already...I don't want to get into on a Rail site...

- Pascack Valley line / Old Erie Main line restoration from Spring Valley to Suffern , this would be very easy to do , the ROW is relativy intact and NYSDOT decided not to block the ROW when they reconstructed Route 59 a few years ago. I think this project should go first before the I-287 Rail Project. It should cost more then 80 Million $$ to restore the 6 mile long section.

- West Shore line , all NJT / MNRR proposed stations are there and I added the Stony Point , Bear Mountain state Park , Highland Falls , Cornwall on Hudson , Newburgh , Milton , and Kingston. There is enough demand for the other stations , I don't think I need to really explain that. The population growth is there to support the line and extension to Kingston. As for the lower part of the line , you'll notice that I changed the line from the NJT Meadowlands alinement to the Jersey City Alt as i call it. After the Vince Lombardi Park & Ride , I added stations at the North Bergen Transit center for connections to HBLR , Jersey City Heights / Secaucus Road then to Hoboken or Secaucus JCT via a Spur track. The line could be electrified with Catenary from Hoboken Terminal to Jersey City Railroad pasta bowl (yes i call it that) , then from there it would be 3rd Rail to Haverstraw and then Diesel from Haverstraw to Kingston.

So what are your opinions on my map?

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the i-287 corridor and piermont branch i can see. the pfizer plant, suffern transfer, and hillburn i dont think will work. pfizer because i dont think many people will go there, suffern transfer because it is too close to suffern station, and hillburn because it is just beyond the yard, still to close to the station. however, a ramapo station could work by where it runs side by side with RT17.

this is just an opinion, no need to raise voices and say this is fact, because i just said this is just opinion.

The opinion of your map is " what the hell you smoking kid".
Downtown Norwalk is a dump and not reviving at all, Norwalk has excelent bus system that will get you to train.

West shore ?? never happen, CSX will never let commuter rail on its only acces corridor to Newark port area.
Beacon line ?? was not bought to be activated but for railbanking and fiber optic right of way.

DutchRailnut wrote:The opinion of your map is " what the hell you smoking kid".
Downtown Norwalk is a dump and not reviving at all, Norwalk has excelent bus system that will get you to train.

West shore ?? never happen, CSX will never let commuter rail on its only acces corridor to Newark port area.
Beacon line ?? was not bought to be activated but for railbanking and fiber optic right of way.

Downtown Norwalk is starting to come back , but just like parts of Newark and Brooklyn it needs alot of work. With the high Demand for commuter housing and dense walkable communities with access to fast transportation ,Downtown Norwalk should renewal it self within 15 years.

I think CSX will one day be forced to give up or share the West Shore line , or the states will buy the line. The Population growth along the line has been semi fast over the past 2 decades leading to all sorts of issues and were running out options to fix it. The pressure is starting to build in favor of restoring the line. So yes it will be hard , but with enough demand it will be doable....

I think the beacon line will come back one day but not for a long time.

stop dreaming and smoking the shit you smoke.
your out of your mind .

Oh boy here we go again!

Just when it was starting to get boring around here........

The River line aka "west shore line" as it was for conrail, is one of the most vital lines for CSX, I seriously doubt they'll ever want to have passenger rail on that line.

DanD3815 wrote:The River line aka "west shore line" as it was for conrail, is one of the most vital lines for CSX, I seriously doubt they'll ever want to have passenger rail on that line.

+ with the traffic on the line it will need to be double track...maybe even triple track (if there is even room for 3 tracks)

Maybe a little more of likely plan: http://www.mta.info/mta/capital/pdf/TYN2010-2029.pdf

From page 59:

In addition, capacity improvements to meet growing demand and service expansion
will be required as Metro-North ridership continues to increase. Projects to improve
capacity include a third track from Crestwood to North White Plains, a flyover at
Woodlawn and improvements at the Spuyten Duyvil rock cut.

Before we start adding quadruple track ROW from GCT to Timbuktu, it might be wise to increase capacity in what we already have, then we could expand North, East, South, West and into space to your heart's content.

RearOfSignal wrote:
Before we start adding quadruple track ROW from GCT to Timbuktu, it might be wise to increase capacity in what we already have, then we could expand North, East, South, West and into space to your heart's content.

From Wikipedia:

Timbuktu (play /ˌtɪmbʌkˈtuː/; Koyra Chiini: Tumbutu; French: Tombouctou), formerly also spelled Timbuctoo, is a town in the West African nation of Mali....

Lets not say this too loud. You might give someone the idea to propose a transatlantic crossing.

Also from Wikipedia...

Timbuktu (ˌtɪmbʌkˈtuː)

— n

1. French name: Tombouctou a town in central Mali, on the River Niger.

2. Any distant or outlandish place: from here to Timbuktu

Back to trains...

Let's reel this into reality people - before a throw up a stop & warn on this.

kevin

The map is very creative, and in a perfect world would make for an extensive, and well area-covered service region. However, we do have to deal in reality, and the reality is:

CSX River Sub (West Shore) : For any kind of service here to be successful, the ENTIRE line would have to be double tracked, high level stations constructed, considerable infrastructure upgrades and new infrastructure (CPs; controlled points, signaling up to and including cab signaling and PTC, etc.), and this alone with the costs that would come with all that would definitely make this service a big fat NO - AIN'T HAPPENING!!! Also CSX runs easily a dozen (possibly more) high priority intermodal trains over this route (the line's life line), and these are very time-sensitive trains carrying UPS, Schneider, J.B. HUNT and even FEDEX shipments and trailers, and all trains which see (and more than likely MUST SEE) nothing but NORAC 281s or CSX Rule 1281s (Clear signals) from like CP SK (East of Selkirk) all the way to CP 5 (Ridgefield Park), and the last thing CSX needs are commuter trains with door problems, HEP failures, cab signal failures, stalled engines, etc. and not to mention delays from customer load, delaying some sensitive traffic which can lead to some head-rolling if the trains are late, not to mention backing up the other remaining traffic which contributes to the almost 35-40 trains a day which ply the route. The area between CP 5 and Hoboken and/or NY Penn would alone make for congestion, especially since there is a crew change point north of CP 3 in North Bergen, and more infrastructure to run trains around all that, equaling more costs!! Simply said, this line - AIN'T HAPPENING!!

On the NY Penn Extension of the Hell Gate Line, Pelham Manor has already been disqualified from any further consideration, because it presents problems in terms of adequate access in terms of vehicular traffic and transit access (buses, etc.), cost of construction (already deemed pretty high). The ridership was deemed robust in potential ridership (1,308,856 annual person-trips), new transit trips was deemed low (78,722 annually) as was MNR ridership trip increases (270,792 trips per year), compared to other sites, like Co-Op City, Parkchester and Hunt's Point. So stick the fork in Pelham Manor.

As for the Beacon Line, especially west of CP 155 (Dykemanns) to BL (BLOCK LIMIT) RIVER and CP 58 (Beacon Line/Hudson Line junction south of Beacon Station), there has not been nor is there any plans for any resumption of service. Most of the line would need some considerable $$$$$$ for considerable right of way and infrastructure work needed. The track is in very bad shape, I have heard of some washouts along there as well, plus costs of signaling, and the reinstallation of grade crossing equipment. All of this equals money, and money that the MTA just does not have, and one would have to question the demand for such a service. And Dutchrailnut can confirm the roughed up condition of the line between CP 155 (Dykemanns) and Danbury, also of which no plans for any kind of service is even in any of the long term works. The line, at best, would be maintained enough to be able to safely move equipment over it in the future should another need for such a move and the routing arise (i.e., the Bethel washout, and the equipment moves over the line to get stranded equipment out of Danbury). The line between those points also has very little, if any, freight service by the line's owner and operator there, Housatonic.

Hudson Line to Penn via Empire Line : Amtrak forbids operation of Cab Cars along this line, so MNR trains would have to be double ended with engines, which equals not one but TWO engines worth of costs in wear and tear, fuel consumption, and also the availability of engines so such an operation all present issues which would mean this service, for the time being, I would not hold my breath on.

Anything to do with Cross-Westchester services, and Tappan Zee Bridge rail links, and WOH work should all be discussed when the money for all that becomes available!! Right now, with the MTA and NY State all deep in the red, and deepening, I do not think any of those will be seen in the next 25-30 years in the least.

And East Stamford???? No need, because the eastern side of Stamford is adequately served by Noroton Heights and Glenbrook stations.

MNR's #1 Conductor wrote:CSX River Sub (West Shore) : For any kind of service here to be successful, the ENTIRE line would have to be double tracked, high level stations constructed, considerable infrastructure upgrades and new infrastructure (CPs; controlled points, signaling up to and including cab signaling and PTC, etc.), and this alone with the costs that would come with all that would definitely make this service a big fat NO - AIN'T HAPPENING!!! Also CSX runs easily a dozen (possibly more) high priority intermodal trains over this route (the line's life line), and these are very time-sensitive trains carrying UPS, Schneider, J.B. HUNT and even FEDEX shipments and trailers, and all trains which see (and more than likely MUST SEE) nothing but NORAC 281s or CSX Rule 1281s (Clear signals) from like CP SK (East of Selkirk) all the way to CP 5 (Ridgefield Park), and the last thing CSX needs are commuter trains with door problems, HEP failures, cab signal failures, stalled engines, etc. and not to mention delays from customer load, delaying some sensitive traffic which can lead to some head-rolling if the trains are late, not to mention backing up the other remaining traffic which contributes to the almost 35-40 trains a day which ply the route. The area between CP 5 and Hoboken and/or NY Penn would alone make for congestion, especially since there is a crew change point north of CP 3 in North Bergen, and more infrastructure to run trains around all that, equaling more costs!! Simply said, this line - AIN'T HAPPENING!!

I know that I wasn't aware of some of the issues of this line, but I don't think interest in it will ever really go away because of the huge potential of it despite the costs. Admittedly, commuter service almost surely shouldn't go past West Nyack or West Haverstraw. Though there would be demand further north, the population centers become increasingly far apart and riders would probably go to an EOH station for a faster and more direct ride. The freight-vs-pax issues are ever-present and I don't think they are non-negotiable, especially if sharing the line would mean extra capacity (3 tracks to Haworth and 2 the rest). Commuter trains operate over many of the busiest freight corridors nationwide without much trouble. Ultimately, I wouldn't call this line a "big fat no" just very ambitious and improbable, like most major rail projects.

If you're talking about the tunnel that runs beneath Wall Street to Commerce Street, that would be uptown Norwalk. South Norwalk is downtown. Extensive renewal projects are planned for both areas. H.F.C.