North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Carolinian Service

Mr. Norman wrote: For the benefit of those of us here with "whiskers' (you know what that term means Mr Jishnu; you evidently are in railroad service), I presume "Newark Penn - NLR - Newark Broad St. shuffle" translates to "Penn Station City Subway DL&W station".

Correct as usual, Mr. Norman! What I knew as the Newark City Subway was extended from Newark Penn Station to the Broad Street Station, which prior to the advent of NJT was indeed on the DL&W.

MudLake wrote: It could be an issue related to track congestion. Metropark trains can only stop on Tracks 1 and 4, unlike Newark, EWR, and Trenton.

When Metropark was originally constructed, track switches were installed just outside of the station to permit the higher speed long-distance trains that usually use the inside two "express" tracks 2 and 3 to cross over to local tracks 1 and 4 and access the platforms at Metropark. The opposite set of switches were just on the other side of the station, allowing them to cross back over to the inside tracks after leaving the station. I've seen Amtrak take a train making a Metropark stop off of the inside track to make the station stop, then allow a train not making the Metropark stop to run through on the inside track, and then put the train that made the Metropark stop back over on the inside track, now behind the train that passed; all without too much extra, unnecessary delay.

The same thing happens between NJT and Amtrak when both have closely timed stops at Metropark; the first train makes the station stop while the second slows for the stop at the signal and switches just outside of the station. As soon as the first train is out of the station and through the second set of switches, the route is changed, the signal is cleared and the second train is in the station a couple of minutes later.

Jishnu wrote: If you are traveling with a suitcase or two, I don't think the Newark Penn - NLR - Newark Broad St. is really a viable alternative... Things will improve a bit after the new elevators are put in service at Newark Broad St...

I agree... Changing at Penn Newark for the next train stopping at Secaucus is most likely a "same platform" connection, and then changing levels at Secaucus for Morristown isn't as bad as getting down to the City Subway at Penn Newark and then getting back up to the platform at Broad Street. PATH from Penn Newark to Hoboken isn't too bad either, although I do not recall if there is an elevator or escalator from the PATH platform to station level. FWIW, I have never felt "uncomfortable" in Penn Station Newark at night... Stick to the waiting room next to the stationmaster's office on the platform level between tracks 3 & 4 or the main concourse. I assume that Secaucus is equally safe.

skitraindance wrote: Metro Park is the only station in New Jersey that has inexpensive, safe, long term parking. It is also extremely easy to get to being right off the Garden State Parkway. Anyone from Northern New Jersey can easily reach this station and use AMTRAK. The problem with commuter rail stops to connect with AMTRAK is usually the parking is residents only or monthly rates. There is no long term parking at any commuter staion I know except Metro Park.

Amen. For those of you who are not familiar with this area of New Jersey, (...no "New Jersey? What exit?" please...) no truer words were ever spoken! It is convenient (...okay, exit 131A off the Parkway...), inexpensive, safe and you can actually get a place to park! I'll add to the complaint about local commuter lots that even if you are a resident and long term parking was permitted; if you are not there before 5:30am or after 5:30pm, you couldn't find a space anyway!

As a frequent NEC traveller, MetroPark and New Carrollton make absolutely the most sense for those not wanting to embark/depark in either downtown Manhattan or DC. A tremendous population on "the other side of the river" (i.e. NJ) do NOT want to commute or park at/thru Newark. Metropark is extremely convenient, safe and good garage parking. I live in farrrrrrrrrr North Bergen County, NJ....and can drive and park at MetroPark in 15 mins LESS than going to Newark, which is almost half the distance from my home. Same goes for New Carrollton, when going to Annapolis or other "Beltway" business locations.

Sorry about my absence. I was on vacation for 2 weeks in Tennesse. Most of the points I was going to bring up have been covered. I'm glad that somebody mentioned that there are crossover tracks before and after Metropark that allow AMTRAK trains to stop there with no disruption of service or any appreciable delay in service. ( 4 minutes max added to schedule for a train that routinely runs 2 hours late). Also that the Carolinian used to stop there with no negligable effects on the schedule.

Let's for a moment compare rail transportaion with Air Transportation. Imagine if Newark Airport closed all of it's long term parking lots and told it's passengers to take a cab or commuter rail to Newark Airport. Traffic would plummet by at least 50%. People would flock to Laguardia, JFK, or Stewart where on arrival back at the airport they could hop in their car and drive home in a minimal amount of time. They would not need to worry about local transit service running on 1 hour headways at odd hours off the night. They would also not have to worry about having to connect between public transit routes that run at 1 hour intervals that do not guarantee connections..

What I would like to know is just how much money The Carolinian saved AMTRAK or the state of North Carolina by not stopping at the most convenient station for most of the citizens of New Jesey who do not live within walking distance of the stations at Newark and Trenton.

I have been curious for a long time about the distance between the ends of the platforms at Metropark and the crossovers used by Amtrak trains to platform. It must be some way for the move to be so cumbersome.

skitraindance wrote: What I would like to know is just how much money The Carolinian saved AMTRAK or the state of North Carolina by not stopping at the most convenient station for most of the citizens of New Jesey who do not live within walking distance of the stations at Newark and Trenton.

I can't speak for Amtrak, but I don't think that skipping Metropark saved or cost NC anything- if anything perhaps we lost revenue.
NC pays for losses over ticket revenue south of DC. Above DC its all Amtrak's cost.

I can't speak for Amtrak, but I don't think that skipping Metropark saved or cost NC anything- if anything perhaps we lost revenue.
NC pays for losses over ticket revenue south of DC. Above DC its all Amtrak's cost.

Okay. Now I am at a lost. I expected the railroad insiders to say that not stopping at Metropark saved $500 in having a towerman throw the switches to allow the train to stop at Metropark and therefore the loss of the 30 to 40 fares I saw board the Carolinian was justified. Note that although the Carolinian accepts local fares to AMTRAK points between New York and Washington only passengers to points off the New York Richmond mainline would actually book a trip on the Carolinian. Going south you may risk an on time trip but Northbound only a totally clueless person would book a ticket on the Carolininan for a local run between Washington and New York. This trip is routinely 1 to 2 hours late.

skitraindance wrote:

I can't speak for Amtrak, but I don't think that skipping Metropark saved or cost NC anything- if anything perhaps we lost revenue.
NC pays for losses over ticket revenue south of DC. Above DC its all Amtrak's cost.

Okay. Now I am at a lost. I expected the railroad insiders to say that not stopping at Metropark saved $500 in having a towerman throw the switches to allow the train to stop at Metropark and therefore the loss of the 30 to 40 fares I saw board the Carolinian was justified. Note that although the Carolinian accepts local fares to AMTRAK points between New York and Washington only passengers to points off the New York Richmond mainline would actually book a trip on the Carolinian. Going south you may risk an on time trip but Northbound only a totally clueless person would book a ticket on the Carolininan for a local run between Washington and New York. This trip is routinely 1 to 2 hours late.

From what I can tell, you can not book a trip on the Carolinian between Washington and New York.

Is this whole discussion anything more than just a "my favorite train doesn't stop at my favorite station" thread? Obviously there are crossover tracks but it seems that it's Amtrak's procedure to not have any long distance trains stop at Metropark. In fact, all LD trains only stop at stations with multiple platforms (meaning more than two) on the NEC. The NEC is a very busy rail line and perhaps Amtrak is trying to keep the LD trains off of local tracks as much as possible to avoid congestion. Yes, any train conceivably can stop at Metropark but with the great uncertainty in actual stopping times with LD trains, it can potentially throw off the schedules of a number of other trains; notably NJ Transit.

There are four northbound departures from Washington that leave after the Carolinian, the last nearly five hours after the Carolinian's departure. I think most anyone who wants to get off at Metropark instead of Trenton or Newark has some very viable options.

Mudlake posts

Is this whole discussion anything more than just a "my favorite train doesn't stop at my favorite station" thread?

Let's summarize the relavent points raised in this thread.

1. Long term, secure parking is extremely important to long distance travelers. This is evident by the seas of long term parking lots surrounding any metropolitan airport along with bus or monorail connections to make it as easy as possible for these airline customers to access the airline terminals.
2. In the New York metropolitan area and New Jersey the only station that provides secure long term parking, easily accesible from major highways, is Metropark.
3. AMTRAK has decided for reasons that have only been guessed at to have no long distance trains stop at the only station that has long term parking.

It seems to me, that if the reason that AMTRAK does not want to stop at Metropark is that there are no platforms available to the AMTRAK express tracks, that the answer is to realign the tracks and build new platforms. Logically this would result in a major jump in ridership on long distance trains which would easily justify the cost of the construction.

I'm tired of the usual answer of "If you were a true train lover you would put up with any amount of inconvenience to ride the train"

skitraindance wrote: that the answer is to realign the tracks and build new platforms.

Do you have any idea how much this would cost?

skitraindance wrote: Logically this would result in a major jump in ridership on long distance trains which would easily justify the cost of the construction.

How do you know it would cause a significant jump in ridership, and how do you know it would offset the cost of construction? Please back up these claims with numbers and references.

You would also have to build additional parking. Daily parking lot (meaning not monthly parking holders) lot is full M-F from just before 10am till after 3pm.

MudLake wrote: From what I can tell, you can not book a trip on the Carolinian between Washington and New York.

Yes you can and no you can't.

Southbound, #79 is bookable between any of the NEC stations it stops at. I've caught it a few times BAL-WAS.

Northbound, #80 is discharge only beginning with WAS.

In a sense, this vaildates AND contradicts some of the arguments against having it run through to NYP instead of terminating at WUS.

Since Northbound passengers can't ride locally between BAL and WAS, delays encounted enroute to DC don't inconvenience them, aside from modest congestion issues that may be encounted if a late running #80 is running too close in front of a following Regional's slot.

However, the other premise is stymied as a result: that NC pays for losses below DC, while those above DC are covered by Amtrak. Since #80 can't carry local fares, it has NO fresh revenue from boardings as a result.

For those who just can't get enough stats, I overhauled my spreadsheet today to simplify maintaining the Train 79 OTP data. The data entry is now manageable enough that I can do it in under 5 minutes per week.

July 07 Stats, with June in Parentheses:

Train 79 (NYP-CLT)
Scheduled Running Time: 12:59
Average Running Time: 14:40 (14:44)
Median Running Time: 14:41 (14:45)
Minimum Running Time: 13:20 (13:16)
Maximum Running Time: 17:31 (16:34)
St Deviation (in minutes): 61 (48)
90th Percentile Running Time: 15:34 (15:43)
Amtrak On-Time Standard Percentage: 3% (7%)

Two trains on time in June, one in July. OUCH. Thanks, CSX.

If you want to make this more interesting, track #79 from NYP to Selma (SSM) on the CSX and from SSM to CLT on the NS.

See how often we don't lose any more time once we hit the NS, unless we have to wait in the Cary to GRO stretch to pass #74. The official NCDOT policy is that if #74 is on time or close, and #79 is late, 79 takes the hit.

Ask and you shall receive.

STATION Avg Min Late
NYP 0:02
WAS 0:18
RVR 0:43
SSM 1:28
RGH 1:24
GRO 1:33
CLT 1:30

Everything you said is in there. The train stops losing time after Selma, but then between RGH and GRO it's taking a hit (albeit a short one) to let #74 pass by. By the time it reaches CLT, it's gaining again.

Seems strange that the train departs WAS station 18 minutes late. One would think that Amtrak would at least attempt to keep it on time on their own portion of the railroad so it gets sent to the CSX slot "on time."